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April 12, 2012
Re: The Downfall of Imperative Programming
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 23:04:16 +1200
James Miller <james@aatch.net> wrote:

> I wish I could love Haskell, and for pure computer science, it's fine,
> amazing even, but for real-world programming, it just doesn't cut it.
> The concepts are too difficult and not explained well enough, code
> rapidly becomes unreadable unless you maintain super-human discipline
> and broken code is difficult to fix. 

I'm glad I'm not the only one arriving at the same conclusion.


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
To deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, 
as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, 
I Myself appear, millennium after millennium.

http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810
April 12, 2012
Re: The Downfall of Imperative Programming
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 15:14:37 +0200
"bearophile" <bearophileHUGS@lycos.com> wrote:

> Haskell contains some ideas worth copying even in non-functional 
> languages (or in mixed languages as D).

What do you miss in D from Haskell?


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
To deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, 
as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, 
I Myself appear, millennium after millennium.

http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810
April 12, 2012
Re: The Downfall of Imperative Programming
Gour:

> What do you miss in D from Haskell?

It's written a bit below in my post:

> lazy immutable lists, pattern matching, tuples and their
> various unpacking syntax, list comprehension, structural
> algebraic types, built-in currying and partial application

I am about to write a post about one of those.

Bye,
bearophile
April 12, 2012
Re: The Downfall of Imperative Programming
Well, all these guys seem to disagree with you about using 
Haskell in
real-world programming

http://corp.galois.com/
http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/index.htm
http://blog.tupil.com/


--
Paulo

On Thursday, 12 April 2012 at 11:04:06 UTC, James Miller wrote:
> * Russel Winder <russel@winder.org.uk> [2012-04-10 21:02:03 
> +0100]:
>
>> On Tue, 2012-04-10 at 21:22 +0200, Gour wrote:
>> [...]
>> > In any case, as it is often said, I got a feeling that 
>> > despite its
>> > potential cleanliness, the real-world Haskell code was not 
>> > so readable.
>> 
>> That probably comes down to familiarity and personal taste.
>> 
>> > By deploying some coding discipline, we tend to believe that 
>> > D can serve
>> > well as FP-language for the masses. :-)
>> 
>> Hummm... the really core issue is whether the language 
>> supports tail
>> call optimization.  Functional programming languages demand 
>> it, C, C++,
>> Java, Go, Python definitely don't have it, D...
>> 
>
> I used Haskell a bit a while back, and while I enjoyed using 
> it, and was
> quite capable of writing in proper functional style, I found 
> reasoning
> about the programs tedious and difficult. Due to the nature of
> "Everything is a function" (mostly), you end up with an 
> incredible
> amount of functions for the simplest tasks. And some of the 
> most common
> tasks in real-world programming, string processing and IO, are
> significantly more difficult in Haskell.
>
> Monads aren't a problem, the discussion of monads, by functional
> programmers is a problem. The moment some snobby functional 
> programmer
> comes along and starts talking about category theory and some 
> esoteric
> aspect of Type Algebra generalized of some field of Assholery, 
> most
> people's brains turn off. It gets worse when you go: "How does 
> this help
> read from a file" and they give you a long stare and start all 
> over
> again, I just want to know how to read from a goddamn file!
>
> I wish I could love Haskell, and for pure computer science, 
> it's fine,
> amazing even, but for real-world programming, it just doesn't 
> cut it.
> The concepts are too difficult and not explained well enough, 
> code
> rapidly becomes unreadable unless you maintain super-human 
> discipline
> and broken code is difficult to fix. Case in point is darcs, 
> which is a
> perfect application of real-word usage, and the GHC developers 
> are
> complaining of it being unstable, bloated and impossible to 
> fix, so they
> are moving to git (written in C no less).
>
> --
> James Miller
April 12, 2012
Re: The Downfall of Imperative Programming
* bearophile <bearophileHUGS@lycos.com> [2012-04-12 15:14:37 +0200]:

> James Miller:
> 
> >I wish I could love Haskell, and for pure computer science, it's
> >fine, amazing even, but for real-world programming,
> >it just doesn't cut it.
> 
> Haskell contains some ideas worth copying even in non-functional
> languages (or in mixed languages as D).
> 
> Enforced purity and immutability, lazy immutable lists, pattern
> matching, tuples and their various unpacking syntax, list
> comprehension, structural algebraic types, built-in currying and
> partial application, and so on, are handy and allow to express
> certain computing idioms in a succinct and clear way (and not every
> part of a program needs the same runtime efficiency). Scala language
> shows that you can put several of those things in a language that
> supports mutability too.
> 
> Bye,
> bearophile

I like Scala, didn't really get it when I first looked at it, but that
was a while ago, and I have learned Haskell since then, so I might give
it another look. As I said, Haskell is a fine language, and the features
are very useful.

My favorites are: partial function application, currying, list
comprehension and lazy lists. There are others, but these are things
that I miss the most from my time using Haskell

--
James Miller
April 12, 2012
Re: The Downfall of Imperative Programming
On Thursday, 12 April 2012 at 13:36:41 UTC, Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
> On 04/10/2012 12:06 PM, Paulo Pinto wrote:
>>
>> A curious fact is that the FP fans have much to thank to 
>> Microsoft, as
>> it is the company with more FP research on their paychecks. 
>> Many open
>> source fans are not aware that a few of the main developers in 
>> the Ocaml
>> and Haskell communities, work for Microsoft Research labs.
>
> I don't see any reason to thank Microsoft for this so much as 
> to be wary of it. The same people that were getting paid to 
> work on this stuff at universities in Europe, where software 
> patents don't exist, are now getting paid to work at Microsoft, 
> where patenting software is expected as part of the job.
>
> Microsoft has also in recent years been very aggressive with 
> their patent portfolio, rattling their saber at Linux and suing 
> Android distributors.

And yet IBM still is the number one champion in patents.

Or just, because they play nice most of the time with open source 
they are excused?

Patents are bad, regardless which company makes use of them.
April 12, 2012
Re: The Downfall of Imperative Programming
On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 05:02:36PM +0200, Paulo Pinto wrote:
> On Thursday, 12 April 2012 at 13:36:41 UTC, Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
[...]
> >Microsoft has also in recent years been very aggressive with their
> >patent portfolio, rattling their saber at Linux and suing Android
> >distributors.
> 
> And yet IBM still is the number one champion in patents.
> 
> Or just, because they play nice most of the time with open source they
> are excused?
> 
> Patents are bad, regardless which company makes use of them.

All big companies are guilty of patent squatting. I distrust all of
them. The bottomline is, once a company grows big enough, it acquires
all sorts of vested interests in making more money, and retaining its
position to be able to do so. Patent squatting is especially popular
among contemporary high-tech companies. They essentially have no choice
because they have to answer to their stakeholders. Only startups and
grassroots companies have the chance of being decent in this respect.


T

-- 
I think the conspiracy theorists are out to get us...
April 13, 2012
Re: The Downfall of Imperative Programming
On 04/12/2012 11:02 AM, Paulo Pinto wrote:
>
> And yet IBM still is the number one champion in patents.
>
> Or just, because they play nice most of the time with open source they
> are excused?

I don't know why you are talking about IBM. Maybe you should reread my 
post. I'm talking about Microsoft because you brought them up.
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