On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 10:07:12 +0200, Jacob Carlborg wrote:

> On 09/07/14 21:21, Walter Bright wrote:
> 
>> Dustmite is just one example of this, but it's on top of my head because I went looking for a link to it to go with the Reddit pointer to the video. It fits in quite nicely with my previous antics at discovering there were no links to gdc or ldc instructions, and no mention anywhere that to get gdc on Ubuntu, one only needs to type:
>>
>>     sudo apt-get install gdc
>>
>> All you guys building stuff - it's all WASTED EFFORT if you don't make it findable by users. /rant
> 
> So what's the policy on this? Which tools can be added to dlang.org? I have a tool, DVM [1], for installing DMD. It's cross-platform, allows you to install and switch between multiple versions of DMD. Doesn't require any updates when new releases of DMD come out. It just works.
> 
> Should I create a pull request and add instructions and a link to it?
> 
> [1] https://github.com/jacob-carlborg/dvm

BTW, we at EMSI use DVM on all our computers. Thanks for creating it.

JC

On Thursday, 10 July 2014 at 08:07:12 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> So what's the policy on this? Which tools can be added to dlang.org? I have a tool, DVM [1], for installing DMD. It's cross-platform, allows you to install and switch between multiple versions of DMD. Doesn't require any updates when new releases of DMD come out. It just works.
>
> Should I create a pull request and add instructions and a link to it?
>
> [1] https://github.com/jacob-carlborg/dvm

I think pretty much anything that is stable and easy to install/use can be promoted via dlang.org
Inclusion to tools repo is a bit more restrictive - traditionally there only tools with Phobos-only dependencies as far as I can see.

On 7/10/14, 1:07 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> On 09/07/14 21:21, Walter Bright wrote:
>
>> Dustmite is just one example of this, but it's on top of my head because
>> I went looking for a link to it to go with the Reddit pointer to the
>> video. It fits in quite nicely with my previous antics at discovering
>> there were no links to gdc or ldc instructions, and no mention anywhere
>> that to get gdc on Ubuntu, one only needs to type:
>>
>>     sudo apt-get install gdc
>>
>> All you guys building stuff - it's all WASTED EFFORT if you don't make
>> it findable by users. /rant
>
> So what's the policy on this? Which tools can be added to dlang.org? I
> have a tool, DVM [1], for installing DMD. It's cross-platform, allows
> you to install and switch between multiple versions of DMD. Doesn't
> require any updates when new releases of DMD come out. It just works.
>
> Should I create a pull request and add instructions and a link to it?
>
> [1] https://github.com/jacob-carlborg/dvm

Long-standing tools of known usefulness should definitely be easily accessible from the main site. I'm not sure about the particulars though, but these are for the entire community to decide.

Andrei

On 7/10/2014 10:23 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> Long-standing tools of known usefulness should definitely be easily accessible
> from the main site. I'm not sure about the particulars though, but these are for
> the entire community to decide.

Certainly at a MINIMUM the compilers should be findable and the tools that come with the distribution. The current dlang.org doesn't even do that.

Here's an example from digitalmars.com. Sure, my web design sux, but on the left is a list of the tools, and clicking one one brings up the manual page specific for that tool. I think it is straightforward for users to navigate and quickly find and get the information they need:

http://www.digitalmars.com/ctg/ctg.html

On 2014-07-10 18:19, Jonathan Crapuchettes wrote:

> BTW, we at EMSI use DVM on all our computers. Thanks for creating it.

That's great to hear :)

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg

On 2014-07-10 18:34, Dicebot wrote:

> Inclusion to tools repo is a bit more restrictive - traditionally there
> only tools with Phobos-only dependencies as far as I can see.

Yeah, that's understandable.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg

On 7/9/14, 12:21 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
> Vladimir's talk on Dustmite is now up on Reddit. We ship Dustmite as
> part of the dmd distribution.
>
> But it's a secret.
>
> Just try to find out anything or any mention of Dustmite on dlang.org.
>
> The idea "Build It, and They Will Come" is a stupid hollywood myth. We
> cannot go on with creating fantastic, revolutionary tools and then keep
> them a secret.
>
> Dustmite is just one example of this, but it's on top of my head because
> I went looking for a link to it to go with the Reddit pointer to the
> video. It fits in quite nicely with my previous antics at discovering
> there were no links to gdc or ldc instructions, and no mention anywhere
> that to get gdc on Ubuntu, one only needs to type:
>
>     sudo apt-get install gdc
>
> All you guys building stuff - it's all WASTED EFFORT if you don't make
> it findable by users. /rant

This post underlines a few of my frustrations as well, which I'll share with the intent of producing a positive effect.

There are a few things each and any of us can do, starting with the simplest and utmost trivial, to help D succeed (which is I assume the shared goal of all of our regular participants).

* Shed the provincialism. The implied provincialism in this forum - which is but a microcosm - is staggering. There's a good fight of ideas and thousands of hours cumulatively spent on writing posts, often with great technical content. There seems to be no understanding that statistically nobody in the larger community lurks here; nobody peruses the forum to get the pulse of language development; nobody comes here to read technical pieces about D. The forum activity should be planning followed by "going out" and doing things.

The simplest thing do for each and every member of this community is to have accounts on all social news sites (twitter, facebook, reddit, hackernews) and discuss _there_ things instead of replying to announcements internally. I recall some of us haven't even brought themselves to check digitalmars.D.announce although they are active on digitalmars.D - this is crazy!

It has often been the case that Walter and I (again!) hold the fort on public discussions on D, while most of the others discuss the same topics on the forums.

* Get on pull requests. I can't say this much enough. If you wrote some, ping about it. If you see some you care about, review it even if you don't have rights yet. A simple message such as "I reviewed this and LGTM, any holdup?" would be sufficient to attract attention.

If you feel experienced enough, ask to be included as a committer. (I plan to lower the bar on committer acceptance; with git it's easy to undo mistakes and we should exercise due process on firing, not accepting, committers.)

* Steal work. Whenever there's something obviously good to be done, don't expect Walter or me to do it. Don't suggest. Don't dispense advice (especially of the management drone kind - seriously, STFU). Just do it. There's just a FRACKTON of simple and obviously good work to be done here. Get on it.


Andrei

On Thursday, 10 July 2014 at 19:11:39 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> On 7/9/14, 12:21 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
>> Vladimir's talk on Dustmite is now up on Reddit. We ship Dustmite as
>> part of the dmd distribution.
>>
>> But it's a secret.
>>
>> Just try to find out anything or any mention of Dustmite on dlang.org.
>>
>> The idea "Build It, and They Will Come" is a stupid hollywood myth. We
>> cannot go on with creating fantastic, revolutionary tools and then keep
>> them a secret.
>>
>> Dustmite is just one example of this, but it's on top of my head because
>> I went looking for a link to it to go with the Reddit pointer to the
>> video. It fits in quite nicely with my previous antics at discovering
>> there were no links to gdc or ldc instructions, and no mention anywhere
>> that to get gdc on Ubuntu, one only needs to type:
>>
>>    sudo apt-get install gdc
>>
>> All you guys building stuff - it's all WASTED EFFORT if you don't make
>> it findable by users. /rant
>
> This post underlines a few of my frustrations as well, which I'll share with the intent of producing a positive effect.
>
> There are a few things each and any of us can do, starting with the simplest and utmost trivial, to help D succeed (which is I assume the shared goal of all of our regular participants).
>
> * Shed the provincialism. The implied provincialism in this forum - which is but a microcosm - is staggering. There's a good fight of ideas and thousands of hours cumulatively spent on writing posts, often with great technical content. There seems to be no understanding that statistically nobody in the larger community lurks here; nobody peruses the forum to get the pulse of language development; nobody comes here to read technical pieces about D. The forum activity should be planning followed by "going out" and doing things.
>
> The simplest thing do for each and every member of this community is to have accounts on all social news sites (twitter, facebook, reddit, hackernews) and discuss _there_ things instead of replying to announcements internally. I recall some of us haven't even brought themselves to check digitalmars.D.announce although they are active on digitalmars.D - this is crazy!
>
> It has often been the case that Walter and I (again!) hold the fort on public discussions on D, while most of the others discuss the same topics on the forums.
>
> * Get on pull requests. I can't say this much enough. If you wrote some, ping about it. If you see some you care about, review it even if you don't have rights yet. A simple message such as "I reviewed this and LGTM, any holdup?" would be sufficient to attract attention.
>
> If you feel experienced enough, ask to be included as a committer. (I plan to lower the bar on committer acceptance; with git it's easy to undo mistakes and we should exercise due process on firing, not accepting, committers.)
>
> * Steal work. Whenever there's something obviously good to be done, don't expect Walter or me to do it. Don't suggest. Don't dispense advice (especially of the management drone kind - seriously, STFU). Just do it. There's just a FRACKTON of simple and obviously good work to be done here. Get on it.
>
>
> Andrei

I added a "Review pull requests" section in the "Get involved" page at DWiki. Please use some time otherwise spent on frustrated forum posts and improve it (considering my contributions to Phobos are minimal, there's probably some bullshit/missing obvious stuff)

The "Get Involved" page:
http://wiki.dlang.org/Get_involved
Edit the "Review pull requests" section:
http://wiki.dlang.org/?title=Get_involved&action=edit&section=5

On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 09:21:09PM +0000, Kiith-Sa via Digitalmars-d wrote: [...]
> I added a "Review pull requests" section in the "Get involved" page at DWiki. Please use some time otherwise spent on frustrated forum posts and improve it (considering my contributions to Phobos are minimal, there's probably some bullshit/missing obvious stuff)
> 
> The "Get Involved" page:
> http://wiki.dlang.org/Get_involved
> Edit the "Review pull requests" section:
> http://wiki.dlang.org/?title=Get_involved&action=edit&section=5

I added some elaborations on that section. Others please chime in. ;-)


T

-- 
Fact is stranger than fiction.