>
>  > As far as I know, gdc can already produce ARM code since it uses the
>>  > gcc backend. All we need now is a nice native D interface to the
>>  > Android libraries, and I'll be a very very happy man.
>>
>
Isn't this the killer "app" for D (like ROR for Ruby, etc.) ?  There was a thread a while ago where someone said the popularity of a language depends on an app that drives the use of that language.

So why not D-based Android applications? Consider:

- D-based Android apps running on millions of phones, tablets, iPad
killers, etc.
- Android developers choose Java for quick and dirty, or choose D when
speed is of the essence. "Quick and dirty" becomes less of an issue as more
of the common JDK functionality is added to Phobos or is at least available
for D. As some critical point is reached, why choose Java at all?
- As more devices use Android, it's GUI library will become more popular.
 With a bit of work, PC apps will start using D-based Android GUIs for
cross-platform development. Forget QT, GTK, etc. etc., use Android for the
app that runs on the PC, on the tablet and on your phone.


John

On 29-01-2012 02:58, J Arrizza wrote:
>          > As far as I know, gdc can already produce ARM code since it
>         uses the
>          > gcc backend. All we need now is a nice native D interface to the
>          > Android libraries, and I'll be a very very happy man.
>
>
> Isn't this the killer "app" for D (like ROR for Ruby, etc.) ?  There was
> a thread a while ago where someone said the popularity of a language
> depends on an app that drives the use of that language.

Yes, D on Android would be great.

In fact, D already runs on Android if you do some tweaks to the GDC build. I've managed to get D apps running on both a Galaxy Tab 10.1 and an Efika MX.

>
> So why not D-based Android applications? Consider:
>
>     - D-based Android apps running on millions of phones, tablets, iPad
>     killers, etc.
>     - Android developers choose Java for quick and dirty, or choose D
>     when speed is of the essence. "Quick and dirty" becomes less of an
>     issue as more of the common JDK functionality is added to Phobos or

I think that's pushing it. I see no reason to include something that domain and target specific in the standard library.

>     is at least available for D. As some critical point is reached, why
>     choose Java at all?
>     - As more devices use Android, it's GUI library will become more
>     popular.  With a bit of work, PC apps will start using D-based
>     Android GUIs for cross-platform development. Forget QT, GTK, etc.
>     etc., use Android for the app that runs on the PC, on the tablet and
>     on your phone.

The concept of a cross-platform UI is broken. Put your logic in a library and develop native UIs for each platform you wish to support. It is the only way to give users the experience they expect and want.

>
>
> John

-- 
- Alex

"Alex Rønne Petersen" <xtzgzorex@gmail.com> wrote in message news:jg29bs$2dm8$1@digitalmars.com...
>
> Yes, D on Android would be great.
>
> In fact, D already runs on Android if you do some tweaks to the GDC build. I've managed to get D apps running on both a Galaxy Tab 10.1 and an Efika MX.
>

CAN I HAZ DETAILS PLZ?
KTHNXBYE

On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 9:11 PM, Nick Sabalausky <a@a.a> wrote:
> "Alex Rønne Petersen" <xtzgzorex@gmail.com> wrote in message news:jg29bs$2dm8$1@digitalmars.com...
>>
>> Yes, D on Android would be great.
>>
>> In fact, D already runs on Android if you do some tweaks to the GDC build. I've managed to get D apps running on both a Galaxy Tab 10.1 and an Efika MX.
>>
>
> CAN I HAZ DETAILS PLZ?
> KTHNXBYE
>

I can't speak to Android, but I know that building GDC on ARM is
fairly routine these days. Make sure to build with
DFLAGS="-fno-section-anchors" in the environment, but otherwise,
follow the normal build instructions.
I would assume the same would apply when building a cross compiler for
ARM (although the normal build instructions are just a bit harder).

On 01/29/2012 12:42 AM, Andrew Wiley wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 9:11 PM, Nick Sabalausky<a@a.a>  wrote:
>> "Alex Rønne Petersen"<xtzgzorex@gmail.com>  wrote in message
>> news:jg29bs$2dm8$1@digitalmars.com...
>>>
>>> Yes, D on Android would be great.
>>>
>>> In fact, D already runs on Android if you do some tweaks to the GDC build.
>>> I've managed to get D apps running on both a Galaxy Tab 10.1 and an Efika
>>> MX.
>>>
>>
>> CAN I HAZ DETAILS PLZ?
>> KTHNXBYE
>>
>
> I can't speak to Android, but I know that building GDC on ARM is
> fairly routine these days. Make sure to build with
> DFLAGS="-fno-section-anchors" in the environment, but otherwise,
> follow the normal build instructions.
> I would assume the same would apply when building a cross compiler for
> ARM (although the normal build instructions are just a bit harder).

http://interaxiom.blogspot.com/2011/08/android-d-stuff.html
See my post there for an example of a "routine" GDC on ARM cross compiler build not working.  It's the second comment.

Building GCC cross-compilers at all is a huge pain in the ass.  I gave up on trying for my Android GDC build for the time being because I don't have infinite hours to mess with that stuff.

Binaries please.

On 29 January 2012 04:02, Alex Rønne Petersen <xtzgzorex@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 29-01-2012 02:58, J Arrizza wrote:
>
>>         > As far as I know, gdc can already produce ARM code since it
>>        uses the
>>         > gcc backend. All we need now is a nice native D interface to the
>>         > Android libraries, and I'll be a very very happy man.
>>
>>
>> Isn't this the killer "app" for D (like ROR for Ruby, etc.) ?  There was a thread a while ago where someone said the popularity of a language depends on an app that drives the use of that language.
>>
>
> Yes, D on Android would be great.
>
> In fact, D already runs on Android if you do some tweaks to the GDC build. I've managed to get D apps running on both a Galaxy Tab 10.1 and an Efika MX.


Really? Where is the toolchain, and why isn't it available/mentioned on d-p-l?

On 29 January 2012 07:42, Andrew Wiley <wiley.andrew.j@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 9:11 PM, Nick Sabalausky <a@a.a> wrote:
> > "Alex Rønne Petersen" <xtzgzorex@gmail.com> wrote in message news:jg29bs$2dm8$1@digitalmars.com...
> >>
> >> Yes, D on Android would be great.
> >>
> >> In fact, D already runs on Android if you do some tweaks to the GDC
> build.
> >> I've managed to get D apps running on both a Galaxy Tab 10.1 and an
> Efika
> >> MX.
> >>
> >
> > CAN I HAZ DETAILS PLZ?
> > KTHNXBYE
> >
>
> I can't speak to Android, but I know that building GDC on ARM is
> fairly routine these days. Make sure to build with
> DFLAGS="-fno-section-anchors" in the environment, but otherwise,
> follow the normal build instructions.
> I would assume the same would apply when building a cross compiler for
> ARM (although the normal build instructions are just a bit harder).
>

Am I the only one that finds it annoying that any dev that wants to use D seems to have to A) use linux, and B) know how to build GCC on their own? How many people does this turn away?

Build scripts and mingw binaries plz! Then devs can actually get to work and start writing software. 90% of my time spent with D involves trying to fuck around with msys/cygwin environments, trying to build toolchains, and having an endless stream of related problems. Complete waste of my time, and loss of community contribution.

Chad J wrote:

> On 01/29/2012 12:42 AM, Andrew Wiley wrote:
>> On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 9:11 PM, Nick Sabalausky<a@a.a>  wrote:
>>> "Alex Rønne Petersen"<xtzgzorex@gmail.com>  wrote in message news:jg29bs$2dm8$1@digitalmars.com...
>>>>
>>>> Yes, D on Android would be great.
>>>>
>>>> In fact, D already runs on Android if you do some tweaks to the GDC build. I've managed to get D apps running on both a Galaxy Tab 10.1 and an Efika MX.
>>>>
>>>
>>> CAN I HAZ DETAILS PLZ?
>>> KTHNXBYE
>>>
>>
>> I can't speak to Android, but I know that building GDC on ARM is
>> fairly routine these days. Make sure to build with
>> DFLAGS="-fno-section-anchors" in the environment, but otherwise,
>> follow the normal build instructions.
>> I would assume the same would apply when building a cross compiler for
>> ARM (although the normal build instructions are just a bit harder).
> 
> http://interaxiom.blogspot.com/2011/08/android-d-stuff.html
> See my post there for an example of a "routine" GDC on ARM cross
> compiler build not working.  It's the second comment.

GDC on Android is not the same as a GDC/ARM cross compiler. The android NDK has complicated build scripts to build the compiler and there is no documentation how to add another language like D to the ndk. Someone has to look into that first.

So:
* GDC on ARM, native compiler:
  easy (use -fno-section-anchors),
  fixing -f-section-anchors: not as easy
  ( https://bitbucket.org/goshawk/gdc/issue/120/fsection-anchors-broken-on-
arm )
* GDC on ARM, cross compiler
  use -fno-section-anchors, shouldn't be more difficult than building a gcc
  cross compiler (which already sucks)
* GDC on Android:
  Need to integrate with the android build system
  Android uses a different C library, you'll probably have to adjust
  druntime and phobos. Also some libraries might not be available on Android
  (libdl)
> 
> Building GCC cross-compilers at all is a huge pain in the ass.  I gave up on trying for my Android GDC build for the time being because I don't have infinite hours to mess with that stuff.
> 
> Binaries please.

Manu wrote:

> On 29 January 2012 07:42, Andrew Wiley <wiley.andrew.j@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 9:11 PM, Nick Sabalausky <a@a.a> wrote:
>> > "Alex Rønne Petersen" <xtzgzorex@gmail.com> wrote in message news:jg29bs$2dm8$1@digitalmars.com...
>> >>
>> >> Yes, D on Android would be great.
>> >>
>> >> In fact, D already runs on Android if you do some tweaks to the GDC
>> build.
>> >> I've managed to get D apps running on both a Galaxy Tab 10.1 and an
>> Efika
>> >> MX.
>> >>
>> >
>> > CAN I HAZ DETAILS PLZ?
>> > KTHNXBYE
>> >
>>
>> I can't speak to Android, but I know that building GDC on ARM is
>> fairly routine these days. Make sure to build with
>> DFLAGS="-fno-section-anchors" in the environment, but otherwise,
>> follow the normal build instructions.
>> I would assume the same would apply when building a cross compiler for
>> ARM (although the normal build instructions are just a bit harder).
>>
> 
> Am I the only one that finds it annoying that any dev that wants to use D seems to have to A) use linux, and B) know how to build GCC on their own? How many people does this turn away?
Some linux distributions ship gdc already, also following the gdc build
instructions isn't hard. Once GDC is part of GCC that problem is solved
anyway.
This is of course different for cross compilers, but Iains time is limited
and few people are aware of the gcc/gdc/dmd internals, so other
architectures are not really supported in gdc. For example,
https://bitbucket.org/goshawk/gdc/issue/120/fsection-anchors-broken-on-arm
needs to be fixed before we could call GDC on ARM alpha state. I might have
another look at that issue in ~2 months, but without knowledge of gdc/gcc
internals, fixing it isn't easy.

> 
> Build scripts and mingw binaries plz! Then devs can actually get to work and start writing software. 90% of my time spent with D involves trying to fuck around with msys/cygwin environments, trying to build toolchains, and having an endless stream of related problems. Complete waste of my time, and loss of community contribution.

Using "-fno-section-anchors" is only a workaround to get gdc working on ARM. It's never been documented, it's only mentioned in bug #120 and using a gdc built like that is in no way supported. Doing stuff like that isn't really supposed to be easy.

On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 6:02 PM, Alex Rønne Petersen <xtzgzorex@gmail.com>wrote:

> In fact, D already runs on Android if you do some tweaks to the GDC build. I've managed to get D apps running on both a Galaxy Tab 10.1 and an Efika MX.
>
>> I think that's pushing it. I see no reason to include something that domain and target specific in the standard library.
>
>

> The concept of a cross-platform UI is broken. Put your logic in a library
>> and develop native UIs for each platform you wish to support. It is the only way to give users the experience they expect and want.
>
>
Interesting response.

Look at the IQ bell curve. Now follow this:

- to be popular is to widen the appeal of D to 2 sigmas of that curve.
- to widen the appeal is to make D easy enough for 95% of the
developer population to use it without any hassle
- "no hassle" is equivalent to make it simple enough for the farthest left
hand side of the curve.
- and that means dead simple to install, dead simple to code in, dead
simple to determine and fix when it goes wrong, dead simple to get it
working on any OS they are used to working on.
- that means there is no "that's pushing it" or "concept is broken" or "all
you have to do is some tweaks" or any other rationalization. If they need
it, they get it. Period.


In short, to make D popular is a hell of a lot more work.  Samuel Johnson said "I did not have time to write you a short letter, so I wrote you a long one instead." Paraphrase that for D.

So another, better, question: Do you -- we -- want to make D a popular language or not?

If not, that implies one set of development and architectural strategies.
 If yes, it implies another set. The two sets have some but little
intersection. And that means you have to choose the end goal you want now
and, once chosen, you have to stick to it.

John