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May 01, 2012
An observation
I got to a point of pain with the "Re: How can D become adopted at my
company?" thread so I thought I would say something.

This list often has threads that go to 300-400 contributions or more.
After about 20-25 contributions the topic completely changes and is
often completely unrelated to the subject.  Quite quickly I think TL;DR
and so simply delete all future messages on that thread even though this
means more than likely missing good contributions. The mis-match of
subject and topic of the contained contribution is impossible to deal
with, so I think why bother? If people would change the subject field
and/or switch to a new thread with a new subject, it would enable much
easier appreciation of the content, and hence more likely contribution.

-- 
Russel.
=============================================================================
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.winder@ekiga.net
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel@winder.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder
May 01, 2012
Re: An observation
On Tue, 01 May 2012 15:46:56 +0100
Russel Winder <russel@winder.org.uk> wrote:

> This list often has threads that go to 300-400 contributions or more.
> After about 20-25 contributions the topic completely changes and is
> often completely unrelated to the subject.  Quite quickly I think
> TL;DR and so simply delete all future messages on that thread even
> though this means more than likely missing good contributions. The
> mis-match of subject and topic of the contained contribution is
> impossible to deal with, so I think why bother? If people would
> change the subject field and/or switch to a new thread with a new
> subject, it would enable much easier appreciation of the content, and
> hence more likely contribution.

Very true. I also have to ignore such threads consuming too much time.

Interestingly, the same point was today mentioned on #d and my
observation is that among all the mailing lists which I follow (via
Gmane), only wxwidgets-devel archive (which, btw, contains every comment
from the tracker) is close in size to d.D. (wx-devel ~135K messages
since year 2000 and d.D has ~160K messages since 2004).


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
It is far better to discharge one's prescribed duties, even though 
faultily, than another's duties perfectly. Destruction in the course 
of performing one's own duty is better than engaging in another's
duties, for to follow another's path is dangerous.

http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810
May 02, 2012
Re: An observation
On Tuesday, 1 May 2012 at 14:47:19 UTC, Russel Winder wrote:
> I got to a point of pain with the "Re: How can D become adopted 
> at my
> company?" thread so I thought I would say something.

Good.

>
> This list often has threads that go to 300-400 contributions or 
> more.

Good too.

> After about 20-25 contributions the topic completely changes 
> and is
> often completely unrelated to the subject.

Neither true in general nor in the particular case. Although 
discussion deviated a little bit from the topic, I found it very 
useful. Many people have their own ideas what to do with D in 
which direction, and information sharing is the first step to 
understand what D is and what it will be in future.

> Quite quickly I think TL;DR
> and so simply delete all future messages on that thread even 
> though this
> means more than likely missing good contributions.

For those, who didn't followed discussion it may be TL;DR, but 
what about contributors? Even erroneously published posts are not 
deleted and I expect nobody would bother to moderate things that 
are even not obvious off-topic.

> The mis-match of
> subject and topic of the contained contribution is impossible 
> to deal
> with, so I think why bother?

Actually many people bothered to read and to answer (likely to be 
a majority). In fact they bothered so much, that such big threads 
are very few. It is unacceptable to delete discussions because 
somebody TL;DR.

> If people would change the subject field
> and/or switch to a new thread with a new subject, it would 
> enable much
> easier appreciation of the content, and hence more likely 
> contribution.

And this is a good advice.
May 02, 2012
Re: An observation
Maybe we should just start to use a forum software where threads 
can be moderated.
May 02, 2012
Re: An observation
On May 2, 2012, at 3:04 AM, "Tobias Pankrath" <tobias@pankrath.net> wrote:

> Maybe we should just start to use a forum software where threads can be moderated.

Usenet can be moderated too. It's just work for somebody.
May 02, 2012
Re: An observation
On Wed, May 02, 2012 at 07:41:54AM -0700, Sean Kelly wrote:
[...]
> Usenet can be moderated too.
[...]

Yikes! When I read that I didn't know whether to laugh or to cry.
Usenet? Moderation? Wow...

Anyway, back on topic, I have this suspicion that a lot of the
complaints about the forums is due to not using a forum/mail reader that
has adequate threading facilities.

I use Mutt, and I have no problem at all following threads that I'm
interested in and ignoring threads I'm not interested in. Mutt shows the
full thread tree of the discussion, and allows you to delete an entire
subthread with a single keystroke, so all you have to do when you see
the beginning of an uninteresting thread is to hit D, and it all goes
away. Or just navigate past the uninteresting subtree of the discussion.
This is within a single discussion, of course. The thread-delete
function is also eminently useful for unrelated threads that you aren't
interested in: just thread-delete the entire tree with the uninteresting
subject line, and you're done. Mutt can also expand/collapse threads so
that you don't drown in the sea of giant thread trees. It isn't perfect
in this area (ideally it should let you do the same with subtrees) but
it's pretty dang good.

Not that I'm advocating Mutt, but I do recommend taking the time to
learn to use a threading mail/news reader. It will help you keep up with
very high traffic mailing lists/forums, and not just the D forums. (D's
forums are relatively tame, comparatively speaking. I've been on mailing
lists where traffic is measured in units of hundreds per day. And I used
to be subscribed to several of them. Never had a problem keeping up.
Just delete tree whenever it's tl;dr. :-))


T

-- 
Elegant or ugly code as well as fine or rude sentences have something in common: they don't depend on the language. -- Luca De Vitis
May 03, 2012
Re: An observation
>
> Not that I'm advocating Mutt, but I do recommend taking the 
> time to
> learn to use a threading mail/news reader. It will help you 
> keep up with
> very high traffic mailing lists/forums, and not just the D 
> forums. (D's
> forums are relatively tame, comparatively speaking. I've been 
> on mailing
> lists where traffic is measured in units of hundreds per day. 
> And I used
> to be subscribed to several of them. Never had a problem 
> keeping up.
> Just delete tree whenever it's tl;dr. :-))
>

Does the D newsgroup have broken threading in mutt? In my client
threading breaks often because some answers starts new thread
etc. makes the hole thing useless.
May 03, 2012
Re: An observation
On Thu, May 03, 2012 at 12:07:44PM +0200, Tobias Pankrath wrote:
> >
> >Not that I'm advocating Mutt, but I do recommend taking the time to
> >learn to use a threading mail/news reader. It will help you keep up
> >with very high traffic mailing lists/forums, and not just the D
> >forums.  (D's forums are relatively tame, comparatively speaking.
> >I've been on mailing lists where traffic is measured in units of
> >hundreds per day. And I used to be subscribed to several of them.
> >Never had a problem keeping up.  Just delete tree whenever it's
> >tl;dr. :-))
> >
> 
> Does the D newsgroup have broken threading in mutt? In my client
> threading breaks often because some answers starts new thread etc.
> makes the hole thing useless.

To be honest, I don't know. I suspect there's some sort of
incompatibility (people tell me that my replies are always broken, but I
don't see it, and I do notice some people's replies being out of place).
It doesn't happen often enough to be troublesome, though. A subthread
may break into two or three, but you can still mass-delete them easily
if you're not interested in that particular topic.


T

-- 
It is the quality rather than the quantity that matters. -- Lucius Annaeus Seneca
May 03, 2012
Re: An observation
On Thu, 03 May 2012 15:31:25 +0100, H. S. Teoh <hsteoh@quickfur.ath.cx>  
wrote:

> On Thu, May 03, 2012 at 12:07:44PM +0200, Tobias Pankrath wrote:
>> >
>> >Not that I'm advocating Mutt, but I do recommend taking the time to
>> >learn to use a threading mail/news reader. It will help you keep up
>> >with very high traffic mailing lists/forums, and not just the D
>> >forums.  (D's forums are relatively tame, comparatively speaking.
>> >I've been on mailing lists where traffic is measured in units of
>> >hundreds per day. And I used to be subscribed to several of them.
>> >Never had a problem keeping up.  Just delete tree whenever it's
>> >tl;dr. :-))
>> >
>>
>> Does the D newsgroup have broken threading in mutt? In my client
>> threading breaks often because some answers starts new thread etc.
>> makes the hole thing useless.
>
> To be honest, I don't know. I suspect there's some sort of
> incompatibility (people tell me that my replies are always broken, but I
> don't see it, and I do notice some people's replies being out of place).
> It doesn't happen often enough to be troublesome, though. A subthread
> may break into two or three, but you can still mass-delete them easily
> if you're not interested in that particular topic.

I use the built-in reader for Opera Web Browser and it has correctly  
threaded your reply.  I see replies out of place a lot too, threads broken  
into pieces and occasionally a large-ish number of replies all listed at  
the top level.  I just bash 'm' to mark the thread read and move on.

R

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
May 05, 2012
Broken newsgroup threading (was: Re: An observation)
On 05/03/2012 06:07 AM, Tobias Pankrath wrote:
>
> Does the D newsgroup have broken threading in mutt? In my client
> threading breaks often because some answers starts new thread
> etc. makes the hole thing useless.

The broken threading is caused by the Mailman newsgroup to mailing list 
gateway, as described in this post: 
http://forum.dlang.org/post/akftpzpkwuoqmfzijhor@dfeed.kimsufi.thecybershadow.net

I was looking briefly at this issue recently, as it was getting annoying 
to follow the large threads in my newsreader, and it seems to me that 
the Mailman stance of changing the Message-ID is wrong. They claim they 
are just trying to follow the RFCs by generating their own unique ID, 
but reading RFC 2822 makes it clear that they are misguided:

"The uniqueness of the message identifier is guaranteed by the host that 
generates it (see below)."

My comment: In other words, they shouldn't be assuming responsibility 
for this.

"Note: There are many instances when messages are "changed", but those 
changes do not constitute a new instantiation of that message, and 
therefore the message would not get a new message identifier. [..] The 
addition of such header fields does not change the identity of the 
message and therefore the original "Message-ID:" field is retained. In 
all cases, it is the meaning that the sender of the message wishes to 
convey (i.e., whether this is the same message or a different message) 
that determines whether or not the "Message-ID:" field changes, not any 
particular syntactic difference that appears (or does not appear) in the 
message."

My comment: Making the intention of the Message-ID clear, and in fact by 
generating a new one they are working against its purpose.

I found two Mailman bug reports with patches regarding this issue:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/266263
https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/496233

I may or may not follow up on this with the Mailman folks. If somebody 
else wants to feel free.
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