On 20 November 2012 09:41, Jacob Carlborg <email@example.com> wrote:
> On 2012-11-20 01:45, Manu wrote:
>> On 19 November 2012 22:28, Rob T <firstname.lastname@example.org <mailto:email@example.com>>
>> On Monday, 19 November 2012 at 19:14:43 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
>> I'd never even _heard_ of half types before this discussion came
>> up. But then
>> again, the same goes for SIMD. And IIRC, there was some sort of
>> attribute relating to pointers and registers that you or some
>> other gaming
>> person was insisting on a while back, and I'd never heard of it
>> existing in
>> C++ either (as an extension or otherwise). You clearly program
>> in a very
>> different world than I do. I care about high performance in what
>> I do but
>> nothing on _that_ level. I suspect that this is another one of
>> those things
>> that certain folks would really like to have, and most of the
>> rest of us don't
>> have any real interest in and often know nothing about in the
>> first place. I
>> don't know that I really care whether it's added to the language
>> though. I'll
>> leave that sort of decision up to Walter.
>> If anything, I just find it interesting how many low level
>> things folks like
>> you keep coming up with as must-haves or very strong wants that
>> I've never
>> even heard of and will almost certainly never care about aside
>> perhaps from
>> how having them in D might help D catch on.
>> - Jonathan M Davis
>> Anyone interested in the low precision float types, and what they
>> are good for, can start here
>> I did not read through all of this thread, but my guess is that the
>> people making the request for half float are mostly into game
>> development and image processing.
>> When I first started investigating D as a potential C++ replacement,
>> I noted that a lot of the "visible" development (what I could see
>> being publicized) was game development, so it seemed that for some
>> reason a lot of the D users were also game developers, so there's
>> perhaps something about D that they find attractive.
>> I've said it before, but I think D has MASSIVE potential in gaming. We
>> are an industry crying our for salvation from C++, but there's no
>> possibility to compromise on the level of access it provides us to the
>> hardware we work with.
>> D is the only language I know of that seriously threatens to offer
>> modern programming constructs, while still providing a syntax and
>> compiler technology that I can easily understand in terms of code
>> generation and can hit the metal when I need to.
>> Additionally, most games programmers have very long-term relationships
>> with C++ almost exclusively, so despite hating it, moving to something
>> utterly different like rust or whatever cool thing comes along will just
>> never fly. You'll never convince a team of 10-30 programmers to agree on
>> such a change all at once, and re-training staff in something so foreign
>> would never be economical.
>> D is again particularly interesting here because it's enough like C++
>> and C# that programmers feel immediately comfortable and somewhat
>> liberated, but not threatened. Also, in a lot of cases, the changes to D
>> are relatively intuitive. The things you expect should work, often just
>> do... but there are still lots of rough edges too.
>> Gaming is a very demanding and progressive field of software, but also very backwards at the same time. It's a sort of unity between many disciplines, and it all comes together under a performance critical and usually embedded umbrella, in a highly competitive and fickle industry. You can't tell the customer to upgrade their hardware when it needs to run on a console with an ~8 year lifecycle. As a (tech/engine) programmer, if you don't scrutinise the code generation, calling conventions, memory access patterns, data layout and sizes, the competition will, and their product will appear superior. Towards the end of that 8 year cycle, programmers are REALLY squeezing these machines. If the language doesn't support that, then you can't compete anymore, hence we remain stuck on C++ (and there are many instances where the industry is reverting to C because C++ is a bloaty pig).
>> Why game devs are interested so much in D is interesting considering
>> the GC is noted to be a problem for game devs. The work of H. S.
>> Teoh comes to mind with his work on a game engine, that pushed the
>> limits of the GC and std lib.
>> I'll admit this is my biggest fear hands down!
>> That said, D is the only GC based language I know if where the GC is
>> relatively optional. This allows us to hedge our bets, and ease in to it
>> slowly as we gain confidence and understanding of how it behaves.
>> I don't yet have much confidence in the GC, and generally avoid using
>> it. I only use it for short term allocations, or non-critical-loop work
>> which often only survive for the scope of the function.
> Someone has created GC free versions of Phobos and druntime:
Nice case study! Thanks!
Looks like a cool little game too :P
> Was posted here:
> /Jacob Carlborg