On 12/29/14 10:58 AM, Joakim wrote:
> On Monday, 29 December 2014 at 18:42:17 UTC, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote:
>> On Monday, 29 December 2014 at 15:34:44 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
>>> This is widely advertised statement I can't agree with. For me goal
>>> is having working language that works. Getting users is indirect way
>>> to achieve that by attracting more contributions but user just by
>>> itself has not value to _me_.
>>
>> An indirect benefit is still a benefit -- as I said in my previous
>> post, these things aren't a zero-sum game.  Among other things, more
>> users means not only the likelihood of more contributions, but also
>> more bugs and points of failure identified, more experienced people to
>> use as a sounding board for ideas, more people to call on for help
>> when you have a problem, and so on.
>
> It also means more people asking for stuff, then doing nothing to
> contribute towards it, as though the D community is their slave labor.

If we, the D community, want D to succeed, we must change this attitude. -- Andrei

On Mon, 29 Dec 2014 15:18:56 +0000
Gary Willoughby via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote:

> This is probably the most disgusting, selfish and deluded posts i've read on this entire newsgroup.
fsck. i was sure that this was written about me. i sucked again.

> If D is supposed to supplant C/C++, then the needs of those users *must* be met, especially without deriding those very users. Just because you work on the D ecosystem does not give you 'carte blanche' to tell a user to stop making enquiries into features that are promised by D.
but it gives! this is at least honest, unlike writing in bugzilla that it is intended for patches and then telling "github or GTFO, nobody will work with the code in bugzilla!" i prefer to read a honest truth, not polite lies.

> The user is the entire goal of D!
i don't know what goal "D" has and how it can has any goals at all, but now you are telling Dicebot that he must work *not* on what *he* wants, but on something that some random user wants. more of it, you trying to tell him that he should shut up. and all this without him even being your employee. THIS is what i call "disgusting, selfish and deluded post".

> > No, not really. Open source is about people working to fulfill their own personal goals and not minding to share resulting code if it doesn't mean much added effort. Only few care about things like long-term success and only tiny minority will be interested in working on ecosystem they don't use.
> With that paragraph, you've just dumped on Walter, Andrei's and all other open source contributor's efforts for the past n years!
and again... maybe i didn't understand you right and "This is probably the most disgusting, selfish and deluded posts i've read on this entire newsgroup" was about your post i'm answering to? but why plurar "posts" then?

please, explain me, *whose* exactly post was "disgusting, selfish and deluded"? 'cause now i'm completely lost.

I'd better respond when I will not be as angry and tempted to go into accusation mode.

On Monday, 29 December 2014 at 19:34:52 UTC, ketmar via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> please, explain me, *whose* exactly post was "disgusting, selfish and
> deluded"? 'cause now i'm completely lost.

Ok, i will explain because i think my point should be made clear and because this thread is giving valuable feedback (from Manu) to the D community about a missed opportunity in industry!

I have no argument with people contributing to D to further their interests. That is what (i'm guessing) pushes most open source projects forward. What i firmly object to and what i find very degrading is that because certain people make contributions to D it gives them such arrogance as to espouse their personal motivations as the overall goal and motivations of D. Also in the process trying to persuade other (non-contributing) users that their expectations are illegitimate or somehow lesser in importance.

D, as a project, already has a firmly entrenched goal and it's motivation is to reach that goal. Anyone contributing to D must acknowledge that goal and be prepared to sustain it through their contributions. The goal is set by Walter and Andrei. The goals are (mostly) outlined here: http://dlang.org/overview.html

When someone enquires about the progress of a particular feature they do not need to hear "contribute or gtfo". What they need is a civil answer preferably pointing to a roadmap.

Some recent users are becoming very vocal, especially regarding memory allocation regarding GC, RC, etc. because D is being pushed towards the C++ crowd and this is what they expect to be able to control. It is marketed as a system programming language, like it or not.  These users expect full control. Of course this is a work in progress. (@nogc, etc.) I know that, you know that, but they don't. Please don't say "I contribute and you don't so shut up". It make the entire community look like massive dicks.

Yes, i know that some users are always pushing for the same features to be implemented and others just what some features to be actually finished, me too! but this is no reason to give them attitude and tell them to contribute or gtfo. Some people just aren't capable of contributing (me included). But that doesn't render their requests moot! Especially when their expectations are included in the goals of D.

I want to contribute, i want to push D forward, i'm slowly educating myself to a standard where i'm comfortable to be able to do so. This constant attitude however just makes me want to concentrate on other languages.

On Mon, 29 Dec 2014 20:09:08 +0000
Gary Willoughby via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote:

> D, as a project, already has a firmly entrenched goal and it's motivation is to reach that goal. Anyone contributing to D must acknowledge that goal and be prepared to sustain it through their contributions. The goal is set by Walter and Andrei. The goals are (mostly) outlined here: http://dlang.org/overview.html
1. i can't see anything about "user-oriented" there.
2. if i don't care about anything written there, i should not
contribute? you keep saying "do as we say or GTFO"...

> When someone enquires about the progress of a particular feature they do not need to hear "contribute or gtfo". What they need is a civil answer preferably pointing to a roadmap.
...and that roadmap has only three words on it: "contribute or GTFO".

> Please don't say "I contribute and you don't so shut up". It make the entire community look like massive dicks.
it's better to be dick than to be a liar. it's obvious that we haven't enough resources to comply with all user requests, so it's honest to say: "if you want it -- DIY! otherwise it's unlikely to happen soon". we are not a bunch of marketing shitheads, we MUST tell people the truth, not tricking people so they will wait for something to happen and then will go out frustrated by lies.

> Some people just aren't capable of contributing (me included). But that doesn't render their requests moot!
anyone is capable of contributing, it's not necessary about writing
a code. if enough people want some feature that developers aren't able
to deliver now, those people can cooperate and hire some programmer(s)
to implement the feature. i can assure you that this way they will get
their beloved feature much faster than by simply talking about how it's
missing. open-source is not about shouting in the box and then
magically getting result out of it. to get something you have either to
put something in or just silently wait until someone else will put
something into the box. shouting in the box will do nothing.

> I want to contribute, i want to push D forward, i'm slowly educating myself to a standard where i'm comfortable to be able to do so. This constant attitude however just makes me want to concentrate on other languages.
ah, the question is WHY do you want to contribute? what output you want to get from being a contributor? i'm not trying to insult you here, it's really important.

On 12/29/2014 8:51 AM, Dicebot wrote:
> On Monday, 29 December 2014 at 16:33:05 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>> If anybody cared about good Windows debugging support or getting vibe.d
>> working flawlessly on Windows, they'd have done it already.  Now, Manu might
>> bring more attention to those issues through his post and someone may decide
>> to work on them as a result- it has already spurred Walter to try and improve
>> the phobos docs- which is why I have no problem with his criticism.
>
> Criticism about documentation is actually very well-placed - it is an issue that
> affects everyone, can be fixed in small chunks and does not require huge effort
> investment for each chunk. No one loses, everyone wins, yay!

I am trying to lead by example, but so far I see only a couple pull requests from others improving the Phobos docs.

C'mon, guys, most fixes are pretty trivial, it's just that there's a lot of them. If everyone does one for a function they're already familiar with, we can get a lot done.

On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 04:25:20PM -0800, Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> On 12/29/2014 8:51 AM, Dicebot wrote:
[...]
> >Criticism about documentation is actually very well-placed - it is an issue that affects everyone, can be fixed in small chunks and does not require huge effort investment for each chunk. No one loses, everyone wins, yay!
> 
> I am trying to lead by example, but so far I see only a couple pull requests from others improving the Phobos docs.
> 
> C'mon, guys, most fixes are pretty trivial, it's just that there's a lot of them. If everyone does one for a function they're already familiar with, we can get a lot done.

I was away on vacation for a week, so couldn't work on this. I'll see if I can cook up a bunch of doc-related PR's this week. They *are* very low-hanging fruit that even newbies can easily contribute to.


T

-- 
Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous? -- Hobbes, from Calvin & Hobbes

On 29 December 2014 at 13:52, Andrei Alexandrescu via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote:
> On 12/28/14 6:43 PM, Manu via Digitalmars-d wrote:
>>
>> On 27 December 2014 at 02:21, Andrei Alexandrescu via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 12/25/14 5:18 PM, Mike Parker wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/26/2014 9:48 AM, Manu via Digitalmars-d wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ironically, the string and algorithm functions are probably the worst offenders, but coincidentally, there is a high chance that these are the first functions anyone will ever reach for, so they present a terrible first impression.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>> When I first made the move from D1 to D2, this caused me no end of frustration. The docs were quite unhelpful in this regard. It irked me enough that I wrote a rant about it on my old blog. It doesn't bother me anymore, so I haven't thought about it in years. This post brings it back.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I thought the std.algorithm stuff is decently documented. What would be
>>> the
>>> major pain points? -- Andrei
>>>
>>
>> The first line of text respectively:
>>
>> C#:
>>    public static void Sort<T>(T[] array)
>>
>> D:
>>    SortedRange!(Range, less) sort(alias less = "a < b", SwapStrategy ss
>> = SwapStrategy.unstable, Range)(Range r) if ((ss ==
>> SwapStrategy.unstable && (hasSwappableElements!Range ||
>> hasAssignableElements!Range) || ss != SwapStrategy.unstable &&
>> hasAssignableElements!Range) && isRandomAccessRange!Range &&
>> hasSlicing!Range && hasLength!Range);
>>
>>
>> I'm sure you can see the problem...
>
>
> Thanks, following your feedback I have recently submitted an enhancement
> request. Just for the sake of humblebragging, C#'s sort works only on arrays
> whereas D's sort (a) returns a statically-informed sorted range with
> specific primitives, (b) is configurable to use a custom predicate, (c)
> allows stability selection, (d) works for any range satisfying certain
> requirements. Yay...? :o)

I'm not making any comment on the quality of the implementation (I
agree, it's awesome), but the prototype as presented in the docs is
seriously intimidating.
I think careful consideration to design/layout/formatting of the docs
in general could alleviate a lot of the perceived noise alone. More
breathing room (whitespace), typeface, colour coding,
bold/italic/etc...
It probably wouldn't wouldn't be hard to be known for excellent docs.
Many other competing ecosystems have horrific documentation
experiences.

It'd be nice to get an experienced designer to invent a really
professional and quality style guide for the docs. Any designer mates
anyone?
This is probably the most important user-facing experience in the
ecosystem, so it can't hurt to get a bang-up design by someone really
experienced.

On 29 December 2014 at 15:44, Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote:
> On 12/20/2014 10:08 AM, Daniel Davidson wrote:
>>
>> Sure, sounds like a winning strategy. Probably not applicable, but were
>> you to
>> run into an issue with vibe or websockets would you proceed to write
>> pretty
>> printers for the supplied data structures, the returned data structures,
>> etc,
>
>
> probably yes, as I've done so when given someone else's program to debug. Writing a pretty-printer is often the first thing I do, as it also helps enormously in learning the data structures

That if you don't have source to the library? (as is the overwhelming
standard in my line of work)
You can't instrument code that you don't have.

On 12/29/14 11:59 AM, Dicebot wrote:
> I'd better respond when I will not be as angry and tempted to go into
> accusation mode.

Very much appreciated. All, please let's keep it civil. -- Andrei