"Vladimir Panteleev" <thecybershadow@gmail.com> wrote in message news:op.uv86plz3m02fvl@cybershadow...
>
> Some libraries are packaged with documentation, examples, etc. with the actual source in a subdirectory. On my system I resolve this with a "packages" directory (containing library packages with the directory structure intact) and an "import" directory, which contains symlinks to the libraries' source directories. We can't do this since some users still use FAT32.
>

Do you mean to imply NTFS can do this? How? Possible on Win, too? I'm a big Windows guy, but symlinks are one of the things I really miss from the times I've used Unix.

On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 00:38:35 +0300, Nick Sabalausky <a@a.a> wrote:

> "Vladimir Panteleev" <thecybershadow@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:op.uv86plz3m02fvl@cybershadow...
>>
>> Some libraries are packaged with documentation, examples, etc. with the
>> actual source in a subdirectory. On my system I resolve this with a
>> "packages" directory (containing library packages with the directory
>> structure intact) and an "import" directory, which contains symlinks to
>> the libraries' source directories. We can't do this since some users still
>> use FAT32.
>>
>
> Do you mean to imply NTFS can do this? How? Possible on Win, too? I'm a big
> Windows guy, but symlinks are one of the things I really miss from the times
> I've used Unix.

NTFS supports 'junction points' which allow you to create something like directory symlinks that point to other local drives or directories. The NTFS version introduced in Windows Vista has, additionally, "real" symlinks, in that you can use them to link to files or directories on network drives.

This is one feature that hasn't much of a standard UI implementation. Versions before Vista didn't even have a standard command-line tool to create them, users had to use 3rd-party software. Vista and newer have a "mklink" command. Personally I use the excellent, now-open-source FAR manager [1], which had the ability to create various NTFS links for a long time now.

[1] http://www.farmanager.com/opensource.php

-- 
Best regards,
 Vladimir                          mailto:thecybershadow@gmail.com

Hello Vladimir,

> On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 08:23:11 +0300, BCS <none@anon.com> wrote:
> 
>> libs? maybe. Tools? No! I hate "installeres" that go out and download
>> what they are supposed to install. For one thing it make it really
>> hard  to archive your toolchain.
>> 
> This would imply that you (and other users) would have to download the
> entire toolchain every time one tool updates.

The same people who want to archive there tool chains will pick one version and stick with it. That's the point of archiving it; so that you can keep a copy of that verion around.

That said, I'd be fine with an installer that offers to go find the latest versions. Or replace the whole thing with a list of links to installers for each component.

> 
> Also I think it's pretty clear that Walter would rather have the
> installer download DMD rather than include it.

I think what is clear is that  Walter wants DMD to get distributed from the digitalmars site. I suspect if we get a setup working where he can generate the installer by running a single script that he would have no issue putting the result up there.

> 
> What's wrong with compressing your entire D folder, including all
> settings?

For me? Nothing. But if that's the option, I'll just skip the installer all together and just download dmd.*.zip

BCS wrote:
> Hello Daniel,
> 
>> I actually started sketching out a possible installer a few weeks ago. Here's what I came up with:
>>
>> First of all, you can't include DMD itself in the installer since the license doesn't allow for this.
> 
> with Walter's blessing you can. Tango goes this way.

But technically, the people who download it then can't redistribute it.
 I just think it's simpler to have the installer download the zip file
itself and avoid the problem in its entirety.

(Incidentally, I actually already have permission from Walter to redistribute DMD; a professor at uni wanted to take a peek so I put together an installer.)

>> As for using an installer "tool", I don't think that's really applicable for something like this.  I say write it in D because otherwise we'll have people saying that D sucks because we don't use it.
> 
> Um, I've got to say I think you are wrong on this. Installer tools will cut the effort to produce this by like 90%. I'd rather see that time spent on just about anything rather than using D just so we can say we do.

I've never met one that could do the sorts of tasks I'm proposing.  If such a tool does exist, then fantastic; let's use that.

Hello Daniel,

> BCS wrote:
> 
>> Hello Daniel,
>> 
>>> I actually started sketching out a possible installer a few weeks
>>> ago. Here's what I came up with:
>>> 
>>> First of all, you can't include DMD itself in the installer since
>>> the license doesn't allow for this.
>>> 
>> with Walter's blessing you can. Tango goes this way.
>> 
> But technically, the people who download it then can't redistribute
> it.
> I just think it's simpler to have the installer download the zip file
> itself and avoid the problem in its entirety.

I guess it's just that an installer that needs anything else (including an internet connection) to install seems utterly pointless to me. In my book an installer is firstly the data to be installed and secondly a tool to configure it. When I download an installer, I want to know that it will work where ever and when ever I have that file. Even if Walter decides to shutdown digitalmars so he can go off and become a monk.

> (Incidentally, I actually already have permission from Walter to
> redistribute DMD; a professor at uni wanted to take a peek so I put
> together an installer.)
> 
>>> As for using an installer "tool", I don't think that's really
>>> applicable for something like this.  I say write it in D because
>>> otherwise we'll have people saying that D sucks because we don't use
>>> it.
>>> 
>> Um, I've got to say I think you are wrong on this. Installer tools
>> will cut the effort to produce this by like 90%. I'd rather see that
>> time spent on just about anything rather than using D just so we can
>> say we do.
>> 
> I've never met one that could do the sorts of tasks I'm proposing.  If
> such a tool does exist, then fantastic; let's use that.
> 

Anything worth looking at will do the only things I think a DMD installer should do.

Walter Bright wrote:
> For the initial version, I'd be happy if it downloaded the zip file, unzipped it, and set the path.

Here:

http://downloads.dsource.org/projects/descent/dinstaller/

(I just put it there because I didn't know where else)

Maybe this can be used as the initial source code for the project...

Ary Borenszweig wrote:
> Walter Bright wrote:
>> For the initial version, I'd be happy if it downloaded the zip file, unzipped it, and set the path.
> 
> Here:
> 
> http://downloads.dsource.org/projects/descent/dinstaller/
> 
> (I just put it there because I didn't know where else)
> 
> Maybe this can be used as the initial source code for the project...

Meh, dmd doesn't seem to work if the path has spaces. Also I forgot to download dmc.zip.

Now the installer should work ok (it suggests "C:\D" as the default installation dir).

BCS wrote:
> I guess it's just that an installer that needs anything else (including an internet connection) to install seems utterly pointless to me. In my book an installer is firstly the data to be installed and secondly a tool to configure it. When I download an installer, I want to know that it will work where ever and when ever I have that file. Even if Walter decides to shutdown digitalmars so he can go off and become a monk.

One thing I should probably have made explicit: the Cygwin setup program downloads all packages as you request them, *and keeps a local cache*.

Let's say you wanted to install D on a machine with no 'net access. Grab the installer, put it on a 'net-connected machine, select what you want and check a "download only" option.  Then you can archive the whole directory for later.

> Anything worth looking at will do the only things I think a DMD installer should do.

The only reason I don't suggest putting together a simple installer is... I just don't see the point.  Lacking any sort of "bundle-ready" IDE or documentation, what would it do?

I suppose it'd be trivial to knock together something that just extracts the archive and sets the PATH.  I just have a very hard time accepting that there exist "programmers" THAT lazy and/or stupid.

Oh to hell with it.

Hello Daniel,


> One thing I should probably have made explicit: the Cygwin setup
> program downloads all packages as you request them, *and keeps a local
> cache*.
> 
> Let's say you wanted to install D on a machine with no 'net access.
> Grab the installer, put it on a 'net-connected machine, select what you
> want and check a "download only" option.  Then you can archive the whole
> directory for later.

A "bundle everything" installer can't be that much harder to build, how about make one of each?

> The only reason I don't suggest putting together a simple installer
> is... I just don't see the point.  Lacking any sort of "bundle-ready"
> IDE or documentation, what would it do?

I can easily see some pointy haired boss forbidding the use of something because the "installer" is a zip file.

> I suppose it'd be trivial to knock together something that just
> extracts the archive and sets the PATH.  I just have a very hard time
> accepting that there exist "programmers" THAT lazy and/or stupid.

I have a hard time believing that there is an upper (or lower) bound on how lazy and/or stupid people can be, regardless of what they do for a living.

BCS wrote:
> Hello Daniel,
> 
> 
>> One thing I should probably have made explicit: the Cygwin setup program downloads all packages as you request them, *and keeps a local cache*.
>>
>> Let's say you wanted to install D on a machine with no 'net access. Grab the installer, put it on a 'net-connected machine, select what you want and check a "download only" option.  Then you can archive the whole directory for later.
> 
> A "bundle everything" installer can't be that much harder to build, how about make one of each?

Oh, it'd definitely be easier.  *However*

Daniel Keep wrote:
> But technically, the people who download it then can't redistribute it. I just think it's simpler to have the installer download the zip file itself and avoid the problem in its entirety.

One big download is technically simpler, but not legally.  :P

I don't want to have to put up a big "Download D!" link and then have a block of small print below it saying "By the way, you're not legally allowed to redistribute this installer, host it anywhere, mirror it, etc." and then have to explain why.

For reference, here's the applicable snippet of the license:

> The Software is copyrighted and comes with a single user license, and may not be redistributed. If you wish to obtain a redistribution license, please contact Digital Mars.

Maybe we could work out a license with Walter for the installers which allows them to be arbitrarily redistributed provided the installer is unmodified?  Then we can show the DMD license itself as part of the install process.

>> The only reason I don't suggest putting together a simple installer is... I just don't see the point.  Lacking any sort of "bundle-ready" IDE or documentation, what would it do?
> 
> I can easily see some pointy haired boss forbidding the use of something because the "installer" is a zip file.
> 
>> I suppose it'd be trivial to knock together something that just extracts the archive and sets the PATH.  I just have a very hard time accepting that there exist "programmers" THAT lazy and/or stupid.
> 
> I have a hard time believing that there is an upper (or lower) bound on how lazy and/or stupid people can be, regardless of what they do for a living.

I know, I know.

*sigh*  I've already started trying to whip the language docs into shape for building into a CHM.  I found CyberShadow's CHM stuff <http://thecybershadow.net/d/docs/> which will make a good starting point.

I want to remove the cruft around the content (such as the DigitalMars
navigation) and give it a minor facelift (look at some nicer fonts,
maybe a little bit of visual bling).

I also want to look at making two versions: a language+phobos help file and a language+tango help file.  I also want to find a tutorial to include with it.