November 10, 2017
On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 11:19:39 UTC, Satoshi wrote:
>
> You are judging C#

Umm... I have 17y in C# programming. Was one of the first to take it up.
Have designed/developed apps for large corporates.

Yet, I switched from C# to D.

I don't think looking to MSFT for programming language advice is a good idea. D is not C#. If someone doesn't agree with me, ok, let them argue their case, not try to silence me.

> but looks where is D and where is C#.

ok..and where exactly is C#?

Still, to this day, trying to get itself out of the Windows only world.

What a joke.

The world moved beyond the Windows monopoly a decade ago. C# is still catching up..


November 10, 2017
On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 10:51:28 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
> Shooting down an idea just because it comes from Microsoft (or any other company) rather than judging it on its technical merits is just bad policy. Ideas should be judged based on their own merit, not simply on where they came from.
>
>
> - Jonathan M Davis

Can I remind you, of one of your great contribtions to this discussion:

"So, I really don't think that there's any point in adding the Elvis operator, but there are some folks here who seem to think that it's a great loss that we don't have it, because they're used to writing stuff like that in languages like C#, which do way more with classes and null than D code typically does."

Any then you have a go at me, for saying we shouldn't be looking to C#?

Wow!
November 10, 2017
On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 11:26:41 UTC, codephantom wrote:
> On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 11:19:39 UTC, Satoshi wrote:
>>
>> You are judging C#
>
> Umm... I have 17y in C# programming. Was one of the first to take it up.
> Have designed/developed apps for large corporates.
Umm... My old colleague had 30 years of development skills, he had developing apps for military sector and still he had writing 2000 lines long functions in C with memcpy and str* crap...

>
> Yet, I switched from C# to D.
I switched from D to C#. There aren't any positions for D.

>
> I don't think looking to MSFT for programming language advice is a good idea. D is not C#. If someone doesn't agree with me, ok, let them argue their case, not try to silence me.
Nobody is trying to silent you, you just started trolling there.

>
>> but looks where is D and where is C#.
>
> ok..and where exactly is C#?
>
> Still, to this day, trying to get itself out of the Windows only world.
>
> What a joke.
>
> The world moved beyond the Windows monopoly a decade ago. C# is still catching up..

How many corporations is using D right now? 10?
Windows is still dominant OS and there are a lot of job opportunities for C#.

D is unusable for startups or corporations where are junior programmers hired anyway because it's too complicated to use. And pay senior developers for job what can be done by juniors but in different language is not worth.
(e.g. metaprogramming is great stuff but require high skilled programmers to use it correctly.)
November 10, 2017
On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 11:45:25 UTC, Satoshi wrote:
> Nobody is trying to silent you, you just started trolling there.

Bullshit!

I tried to inject some humour into the discussion. I thought that was pretty self-evident.

The MSFT fanboys on these forums, which seem to completely lack any sense of humour, decided to take it personally.

November 10, 2017
On Friday, November 10, 2017 11:39:48 codephantom via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 10:51:28 UTC, Jonathan M Davis
>
> wrote:
> > Shooting down an idea just because it comes from Microsoft (or any other company) rather than judging it on its technical merits is just bad policy. Ideas should be judged based on their own merit, not simply on where they came from.
> >
> >
> > - Jonathan M Davis
>
> Can I remind you, of one of your great contribtions to this discussion:
>
> "So, I really don't think that there's any point in adding the Elvis operator, but there are some folks here who seem to think that it's a great loss that we don't have it, because they're used to writing stuff like that in languages like C#, which do way more with classes and null than D code typically does."
>
> Any then you have a go at me, for saying we shouldn't be looking to C#?
>
> Wow!

I "had a go at you," because it seemed like you were bashing on Adam for suggesting that we look at what C# had done and what research Microsoft had done simply because it was Microsoft that had done it. You have been bashing on Microsoft in so many posts that there's no way that I'm going to be able to tell when you're trying to make a joke and when you're simply making fun of Microsoft and putting down information or an idea because it came from Microsoft.

I don't think that the elvis operator and its ilk should be added to D, because I don't think that D is in the same position as C# (and as such, it's not useful in D in the same way), and I think that code that's written to use null in a way that would make heavy use of such operators desirable is code that is going about things in a bad way. Sometimes, it makes a lot of sense for a reference or pointer to be null (especially when it's declared), but I'm very much against code where many references or pointers in the program would be null without it being a bug. I think that that's just begging for bugs related to null.

However, I see no problem with someone presenting information from Microsoft about C# and why they did what they did with their operators. That doesn't mean that I think that we should do what they did, but it's perfectly valid information to be used in support of getting new operators in D if that's what the person posting wants. And even if we don't want to take the same path in D, it can still better inform our decisions.

- Jonathan M Davis

November 10, 2017
On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 11:45:25 UTC, Satoshi wrote:
>
> How many corporations is using D right now? 10?
> Windows is still dominant OS and there are a lot of job opportunities for C#.
>
> D is unusable for startups or corporations where are junior programmers hired anyway because it's too complicated to use. And pay senior developers for job what can be done by juniors but in different language is not worth.
> (e.g. metaprogramming is great stuff but require high skilled programmers to use it correctly.)

Yeah..let's use the D forums to bag D. What a great idea.

And, why are you trying to compare the state of C# to D.

I really do not see your point.

Besides being completely different languages, with completely different purposes, one is backed by a billion$ corporation, and the other is developed by a group of volunteers.

I cannot accept the assertion by some, that we 'should' look to C# for language advice.

November 10, 2017
On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 12:06:42 UTC, codephantom wrote:
> On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 11:45:25 UTC, Satoshi wrote:
>>
>> How many corporations is using D right now? 10?
>> Windows is still dominant OS and there are a lot of job opportunities for C#.
>>
>> D is unusable for startups or corporations where are junior programmers hired anyway because it's too complicated to use. And pay senior developers for job what can be done by juniors but in different language is not worth.
>> (e.g. metaprogramming is great stuff but require high skilled programmers to use it correctly.)
>
> Yeah..let's use the D forums to bag D. What a great idea.
Yeah, because my opinion about D will be more valuable for the language at C# forum :)
I'm not bagging D I'm just providing my personal opinions, experience and expectations.

>
> And, why are you trying to compare the state of C# to D.
>
> I really do not see your point.
>
> Besides being completely different languages, with completely different purposes, one is backed by a billion$ corporation, and the other is developed by a group of volunteers.
>
> I cannot accept the assertion by some, that we 'should' look to C# for language advice.

I'm comparing C# to D because D is trying to do the same stuff as C#. GUI development and website development. I used vibe.d, I used ASP.NET core and I'm still missing some C# features in D. So I'm sharing my experience and expectations.

If you don't want to compare D with C# or other languages, just don't push D to the same place as C# is. Why isn't D standing as a replacement for C++ but pushing into webdev and gui dev? C++ is not used for webdev too, and gui dev in C++ is horrible.

And yeah, swift was developed by some volunteers until Apple took it. Why Apple didn't take D instead?
November 10, 2017
On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 11:55:52 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
> I "had a go at you," because it seemed like you were bashing on Adam for suggesting that we look at what C# had done and what research Microsoft had done simply because it was Microsoft that had done it. You have been bashing on Microsoft in so many posts that there's no way that I'm going to be able to tell when you're trying to make a joke and when you're simply making fun of Microsoft and putting down information or an idea because it came from Microsoft.
>
> - Jonathan M Davis

Well, you just got it wrong, and your comments were unfair, and actually, your comment were 'bashing' on me!

I simply used a humourous youtube video, as a way to suggest that we reconsider whether we 'should' (as Adam puts it), take advice from MSFT.

For that to be taken as 'bashing on Adam', is ridiculous.

And to be honest, I find the MSFT fanboys on these forums always seem to react in that way, like MSFT is core part of their personality or something. You can't say anything negative about a MSFT product without them taking it personally, as though your directly insulted them. And then their mates decide to get involved too, and the whole thing just seems ridiculous.

I had a go at Visual Studio, because it's ridiculous that D relies so much on it. Some don't agree - ok, but I got bashed on for that by the MSFT fanboys.

Then I had a go at Windows 10, cause I tried to install it to use the Ubuntu shell to run D. But I could't even find how to do simple things in Windows 10.

So please, give some proper 'context' when you next comment about me 'bashing on Microsoft'.

November 10, 2017
On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 12:23:06 UTC, Satoshi wrote:
> I'm comparing C# to D because D is trying to do the same stuff as C#. GUI development and website development. I used vibe.d, I used ASP.NET core and I'm still missing some C# features in D. So I'm sharing my experience and expectations.
>
> If you don't want to compare D with C# or other languages, just don't push D to the same place as C# is. Why isn't D standing as a replacement for C++ but pushing into webdev and gui dev? C++ is not used for webdev too, and gui dev in C++ is horrible.
>
> And yeah, swift was developed by some volunteers until Apple took it. Why Apple didn't take D instead?

Well, I really don't want to argue with you, and I'm not sure we really have much to argue anyway.

But I don't see D as a replacement for C#.

C# has a hold of its territory pretty well, I don't see D intruding into it, any time soon. It certainly has some good feature that D could consider incorporating. I don't think (personally) the Elvis operator is one of them. Other disagree find. I'm with disagreement.

C++ on the otherhand, is certainly where D can showcase it's benefit - and indeed where many focus their attention when it comes to marketing D.

And if you had good skill in C++, and switched to D, and was good at D too, then you'll be part of the generation that will replace the C++ language and the C++ programmers ;-)

Sorry to the C++ fanboys..if you're listening...don't take it personally.
November 10, 2017
On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 12:27:22 UTC, codephantom wrote:
> On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 11:55:52 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
>> [...]
>
> Well, you just got it wrong, and your comments were unfair, and actually, your comment were 'bashing' on me!
>
> I simply used a humourous youtube video, as a way to suggest that we reconsider whether we 'should' (as Adam puts it), take advice from MSFT.
>
> For that to be taken as 'bashing on Adam', is ridiculous.
>
> And to be honest, I find the MSFT fanboys on these forums always seem to react in that way, like MSFT is core part of their personality or something. You can't say anything negative about a MSFT product without them taking it personally, as though your directly insulted them. And then their mates decide to get involved too, and the whole thing just seems ridiculous.
You didn't say anything negative about MSFT you just start making jokes about it.
Then get rect and start crying and saying you did not troll.
I'm not MSFT fanboy, I just find some of the C# features useful, nothing more.

>
> I had a go at Visual Studio, because it's ridiculous that D relies so much on it. Some don't agree - ok, but I got bashed on for that by the MSFT fanboys.
>
> Then I had a go at Windows 10, cause I tried to install it to use the Ubuntu shell to run D. But I could't even find how to do simple things in Windows 10.
99% of Windows users couldn't find how to do basic stuff in Linux but they are not blaming whole Linux community for it.
>
> So please, give some proper 'context' when you next comment about me 'bashing on Microsoft'.