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January 20, 2013
D popularity
Why it isn't popular?  We must popularize it. There aren't any 
tutorials with D, books and other stuff. How about writing a D 
programming forum?
January 20, 2013
Re: D popularity
On Sunday, 20 January 2013 at 09:52:42 UTC, SaltySugar wrote:
> Why it isn't popular?  We must popularize it. There aren't any 
> tutorials with D, books and other stuff.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0321635361/classicempire
http://ddili.org/ders/d.en/index.html

> How about writing a D programming forum?

http://forum.dlang.org/
January 20, 2013
Re: D popularity
On Sunday, 20 January 2013 at 09:52:42 UTC, SaltySugar wrote:
> Why it isn't popular?  We must popularize it. There aren't any 
> tutorials with D, books and other stuff. How about writing a D 
> programming forum?

It is unpopular because some problems are still not solved 
(linking, dynamic libraries, IDEs, some compiler internals - 64 
ABI, corrupting memory lambdas, nested struct crashes, debugging, 
win32 COFF, third-party libraries, etc.) and because many are 
satisfied with languages they are using.
January 20, 2013
Re: D popularity
On Sunday, 20 January 2013 at 10:01:36 UTC, deadalnix wrote:
> On Sunday, 20 January 2013 at 09:52:42 UTC, SaltySugar wrote:
>
>> How about writing a D programming forum?
>
> http://forum.dlang.org/

I think he is aware of this forum because he appears to post the 
message via it.
January 20, 2013
Re: D popularity
Am 20.01.2013 12:10, schrieb Maxim Fomin:
> On Sunday, 20 January 2013 at 10:01:36 UTC, deadalnix wrote:
>> On Sunday, 20 January 2013 at 09:52:42 UTC, SaltySugar wrote:
>>
>>> How about writing a D programming forum?
>>
>> http://forum.dlang.org/
> 
> I think he is aware of this forum because he appears to post the message
> via it.

I am not using the forum, but still sending messages. You can send
messages directly via a NNTP client, you don't have to use the forum, so
it's definitly possible he doesn't know of it.
January 20, 2013
Re: D popularity
On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 6:21 PM, David <d@dav1d.de> wrote:

> I am not using the forum, but still sending messages. You can send
> messages directly via a NNTP client, you don't have to use the forum, so
> it's definitly possible he doesn't know of it.
>

David, that can be guessed on basis of the email headers. And the OP does
appear to have used dlang forum.

Regards
- Puneet
January 20, 2013
Re: D popularity
On Sunday, 20 January 2013 at 09:52:42 UTC, SaltySugar wrote:
> Why it isn't popular?  We must popularize it. There aren't any 
> tutorials with D, books and other stuff. How about writing a D 
> programming forum?

I think it is on its way there though. There is the excellent 
book that Andrei wrote which will give a most useful insight on 
the language.

I have heard of D from a coworker but was uninterested in 
learning a new language at the time (and there might be many 
others in that situation). I use D now because I started a new 
project and D fitted my needs perfectly.

I think D shines when people start looking for a new language, 
especially as a C/C++ (IMHO) replacement. As more and more will, 
the more popular D will become.

As you know, those languages C/C++ are probably the most used 
languages worldwide (I am not saying not other rivals them) and 
in companies. Therefore, people who use it tend to use it for 
good reasons (legacy code compatibility, maturity of 
tools/compilers, efficient code generation, low memory 
consumption, etc...), and their minds will be hard to change, 
unless a smooth transition is guaranteed.

I think that new projects/research are the bread and butter of D 
at that time. One of its most attracting advantage for someone 
working with legacy code is that it easily binds to C (so a HUGE 
code base and native os APIs), so I believe D really has a chance 
at becoming widely used.

It is true however that, as you learn to love your new language 
(D), you will also find out that some issues haven't been ironed 
out yet (for the reference compiler for example, as someone 
mentioned), and that can be a deal breaker for some. Those of us 
that still uses it must find that its goodies outweighs its 
drawbacks: drawbacks which I think are for the most part 
UNRELATED to the language itself.

Personally, I believe that D is slowly but surely making its 
place as a viable, more powerful alternative to C++( ( ++C)++ ).
January 20, 2013
Re: D popularity
On Sunday, 20 January 2013 at 14:31:25 UTC, Phil Lavoie wrote:
> On Sunday, 20 January 2013 at 09:52:42 UTC, SaltySugar wrote:
>> Why it isn't popular?  We must popularize it. There aren't any 
>> tutorials with D, books and other stuff. How about writing a D 
>> programming forum?

> I have heard of D from a coworker but was uninterested in 
> learning a new language at the time (and there might be many 
> others in that situation). I use D now because I started a new 
> project and D fitted my needs perfectly.
>
> I think D shines when people start looking for a new language, 
> especially as a C/C++ (IMHO) replacement. As more and more 
> will, the more popular D will become.
>
> As you know, those languages C/C++ are probably the most used 
> languages worldwide (I am not saying not other rivals them) and 
> in companies. Therefore, people who use it tend to use it for 
> good reasons (legacy code compatibility, maturity of 
> tools/compilers, efficient code generation, low memory 
> consumption, etc...), and their minds will be hard to change, 
> unless a smooth transition is guaranteed.

 The standard library needs to be complete/reliable as well along 
with everything needed for parallel processing. An obvious need 
and interest is also present to have libraries/features not rely 
on the GC (in places where there is no GC); Meaning likely only 
the replaced functions (that needed the GC) need be re-written. 
Perhaps naming it like std.nogc.stdio for clarity; Naturally 
anything in std.stdio will be forwarded through the nogc so 
transition is invisible API-wise.

 I'm sure once the library & compiler & language are fully fixed 
and ready that D will become very very popular. C++ will never 
stop being used (embedded systems, games that they need every 
cycle and can't risk switching languages), but it's ugliness and 
issues can be reduced, maybe even replaced as the standard 
language some day.
January 21, 2013
Re: D popularity
On Sunday, 20 January 2013 at 09:52:42 UTC, SaltySugar wrote:
> Why it isn't popular?  We must popularize it. There aren't any 
> tutorials with D, books and other stuff. How about writing a D 
> programming forum?

I don't think the problem is purely a technical one as some may 
be suggesting. For example, even if all the technical issues were 
resolved, I doubt usage will increase much faster than they 
currently are. It won't hurt to make things 100% production 
ready, but I doubt that's the biggest hurdle to overcome.

With mountains of investment in existing C/C++ infrastructure, 
who is going to make the leap to D? The cost of switching must be 
far less than the cost of not switching.

I also figure a lot of people remain perfectly content with 
C/C++, and will never consider changing to something else simply 
because they don't have a significant enough reason to look for a 
better alternative. Even if there are a lot of dissatisfied C/C++ 
programmers, I bet most of them don't even know that there's a 
viable alternative. As far as I know, aside from D, there's 
nothing else that can replace C/C++, except maybe Rust, but it's 
still an experiment not suitable for production use, so the 
perception may be that using C/C++ is the only choice you have.

One possible way to get programmers to at least begin considering 
D, is to expose them to D through useful applications that are 
written in D that can be interfaced directly to C/C++. D has a 
compatible ABI, but in this case there is a technical problem to 
overcome, and it's with D's inability to support dynamic linking 
fully.

If we're to develop tactics for popularizing D, we have to 
consider more than technical issues, and when considering 
technical issues, we have to carefully choose the problem areas 
that are likely to matter the most.

Unfortunately, we don't have a coordinated action plan, and 
everything proceeds in a more or less random way. So I'd say 
improving the way D is developed through better coordination is 
the best way to achieve more rapid progress.

For those who prefer random chaos to guide the way, nothing stops 
that from continuing, you can have both an organized system in 
place, and a chaotic one at the same time.

--rt
January 21, 2013
Re: D popularity
On Mon, 21 Jan 2013 02:00:12 +0100
"Rob T" <alanb@ucora.com> wrote:

> On Sunday, 20 January 2013 at 09:52:42 UTC, SaltySugar wrote:
> > Why it isn't popular?  We must popularize it. There aren't any 
> > tutorials with D, books and other stuff. How about writing a D 
> > programming forum?
> 
> I don't think the problem is purely a technical one as some may 
> be suggesting. For example, even if all the technical issues were 
> resolved, I doubt usage will increase much faster than they 
> currently are. It won't hurt to make things 100% production 
> ready, but I doubt that's the biggest hurdle to overcome.
> 
> With mountains of investment in existing C/C++ infrastructure, 
> who is going to make the leap to D? The cost of switching must be 
> far less than the cost of not switching.
> 

D does continue to face an uphill battle for mindshare: These days,
most people who write code prefer to use languages that accept ANY
grammatically-correct code and deliberately remain silent about all
mechanically-checkable problems they can possibly ignore. Apparently
this is because they prefer to manually write extra unittests so that
only a subset of these errors are actually guaranteed to get caught
(if there's any guarantee at all). I'm not joking: I genuinely wouldn't
be surprised if the next popular "advancement" in computer languages
involves a way for compilers to stay silent about all grammatical errors
as well as the semantic errors they already ignore *by design*.

As bizarre and tongue-in-cheek as all that sounds, most programmers
these days actually *DO* consider that to be vastly superior. (The
thought that large numbers programmers can be that stupid is something
I genuinely find disturbing.)

If I were a savvy businessman (read: no ethical fiber), I would
manufacture a line of fire alarms advertised as being 100% silent, and
therefore less bothersome and less inconvenient than the "old" kind,
and sell them exclusively to programmers. As long as I remember to
refer to the non-silent alarms as "old", and point out how
convenient and productive it is to not be bothered by pesky fire-alarm
sirens, I'd be guaranteed to make millions off of these short-sighted
suckers^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hprogrammers. (I just threw up a little in my mouth
at calling them "programmers", but well, *technically* that's what
they...sort of...are.)

A roundabout way to say it, but I guess the point I started out trying
to make is this: The popularity of dynamic/interpreted/sandboxed/etc
languages *is* IMO one of the more significant roadblocks in the way of
D popularity. Silent fire alarms are what's hip, and here we are
peddling an old-fashioned sounds-and-lights fire alarm. We're pragmatic
instead of cool.
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