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D easily overlooked?
Jul 14
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[OT] Re: strong typing for browser code [Was: D easily overlooked?]
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July 14
https://blog.sourced.tech/post/language_migrations/

A recent article where github programming languages popularity and migration got analysed was very interesting but it showed one noticeable thing:

A total lack of D even mentioned!!!

When looking at other language ranking sites, D always scores better then Rust. Yet, Rust gets included in the ranking but D is ... nowhere to be seen. It gets even a bit annoying when its always Rust, Rust, Rust ... that keeps popping up. Seen it more and more how Rust is simply trampling over any D messaging.

D... It really has no very unique feature that makes it noticeable.

* No Galactic overlord ( C#, Go, ... )
* no GC language that people can push until people there ears bleed ( Rust)
* no really unique features that people care about to set it aside from C/C++, ...
* It has the kitchen and sink but nobody talk about the kitchen and sink.

I know people will jump onboard and start yelling how D has very unique features but from the "outside world" its always the same response. While more people are downloading D and trying it out, i barely see any independent D language blogs.

Not to be a downer but D really in my eyes is missing that "unique" feature that people care about, that allows people to blog about the language...
July 14
On Friday, 14 July 2017 at 08:57:17 UTC, Wulfklaue wrote:
> https://blog.sourced.tech/post/language_migrations/
>
> A recent article where github programming languages popularity and migration got analysed was very interesting but it showed one noticeable thing:
>
> [...]

The beauty of D lies in it's holistic approach.

The one unique feature to point out would be CTFE which is not to be found in other compiled langauges.

constexpr does not even come close since it cannot return literals :0

July 14
On Friday, 14 July 2017 at 08:57:17 UTC, Wulfklaue wrote:
> https://blog.sourced.tech/post/language_migrations/
>
> A recent article where github programming languages popularity and migration got analysed was very interesting but it showed one noticeable thing:
>
> A total lack of D even mentioned!!!
>
> [...]

Small initial community + no one paying for viral marketing will do that.

>
> I know people will jump onboard and start yelling how D has very unique features but [...]

Au contraire (in my case)! I don't need unique features. What I need is a language that allows me to express abstractions/algorithms in a readable, concise manner with the absolute minimum of fuss/time possible.
There's no such language (yet), of course, but D has been the closest contender for a long time with Scala coming second (but dropping out as it's not native).
July 14
On Friday, 14 July 2017 at 09:02:58 UTC, Stefan Koch wrote:
> The beauty of D lies in it's holistic approach.
>
> The one unique feature to point out would be CTFE which is not to be found in other compiled langauges.
>
> constexpr does not even come close since it cannot return literals :0


CTFE is indeed unique but is it a selling point where people will talk about. Something that they will experience in there daily life and say, i can not live without that?

Its part marketing, part unique features, part giving people confidence by having a big name attached to it. A lot of languages really are so much the same ( fast compiling, single deployment, multi platform, ... ), that it becomes harder to stand out with features that the end user cares about.

Recently been doing a bit of Pascal programming. Ultra fast compiler, low memory usage ( No GC ), cross compiler with massive platforms support, there own cross platform GUI ( Lazarus ). And yet they have the same issue. Pascal does not stand out despite being a mature and easy fast, efficient language. But it did get included in that article ;)

D is technically C++ replacement and yet, C++ has been losing massive market shares but D has not been enjoying much from that loss.

Frankly, i am also a bit lost of ideas as to what can D stand out. Its almost like D is going to Pascal route. People use it, it great, but beyond the core audience, its hard to reach out to others.
July 14
On Friday, 14 July 2017 at 09:27:19 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner wrote:
> There's no such language (yet), of course, but D has been the closest contender for a long time with Scala coming second (but dropping out as it's not native).

Heuuu?

Scala Native:
https://github.com/scala-native/scala-native

Kotlin Native:
https://github.com/JetBrains/kotlin-native

C# Native:
https://github.com/dotnet/corert

... very few language that are not going native these days. Especially with LLVM.
July 14
On Friday, 14 July 2017 at 09:32:15 UTC, Wulfklaue wrote:
> On Friday, 14 July 2017 at 09:27:19 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner wrote:
>> There's no such language (yet), of course, but D has been the closest contender for a long time with Scala coming second (but dropping out as it's not native).
>
> Heuuu?
>
> Scala Native:
> https://github.com/scala-native/scala-native
>
> Kotlin Native:
> https://github.com/JetBrains/kotlin-native
>
> C# Native:
> https://github.com/dotnet/corert
>
> ... very few language that are not going native these days. Especially with LLVM.

I think he meant System (!= Native). E.g. none of the languages listed above have inline assembly, which is crucial if e.g. your doing kernel level programming or low-level optimizations. Also, (AFAIK) none of these language allow you to easily create threads outside of their language runtime, which is critical for e.g. writing real-time audio DAW plugins (see https://www.auburnsounds.com/blog/index.html). Also unlike D, the GCs of each respective language is implemented in a different language (C++, IIRC).
July 14
On Friday, 14 July 2017 at 09:32:15 UTC, Wulfklaue wrote:
> On Friday, 14 July 2017 at 09:27:19 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner wrote:
>> There's no such language (yet), of course, but D has been the closest contender for a long time with Scala coming second (but dropping out as it's not native).
>
> Heuuu?
>
> Scala Native:
> https://github.com/scala-native/scala-native

Third party project that supports only a subset (albeit a large one) and effectively requires writing certain code differently (-> scala.scalanative.native).

>
> Kotlin Native:
> https://github.com/JetBrains/kotlin-native

Irrelevant, I wasn't talking about Kotlin.

>
> C# Native:
> https://github.com/dotnet/corert

Same here.
July 14
On Friday, 14 July 2017 at 09:29:27 UTC, Wulfklaue wrote:
> On Friday, 14 July 2017 at 09:02:58 UTC, Stefan Koch wrote:
>> The beauty of D lies in it's holistic approach.
>>
>> The one unique feature to point out would be CTFE which is not to be found in other compiled langauges.
>>
>> constexpr does not even come close since it cannot return literals :0
>
>
> CTFE is indeed unique but is it a selling point where people will talk about. Something that they will experience in there daily life and say, i can not live without that?

Yes, D's compile-time regex are still the fastest in the world.  I've been benching it recently for a marketing-oriented blog post I'm preparing for the official D blog, std.regex beats out the top C and Rust entries from the benchmarks game on linux/x64 with a single core:

http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/regexredux.html
https://github.com/joakim-noah/regex-bench

D comes in third on Android/ARM, but not far behind, suggesting it would still be third on that list if run with a bunch of other languages on mobile.  Dmitry thinks it might be alignment issues, the bane of cross-platform, high-performance code on ARM, as he hasn't optimized his regex code for ARM.

> Its part marketing, part unique features, part giving people confidence by having a big name attached to it. A lot of languages really are so much the same ( fast compiling, single deployment, multi platform, ... ), that it becomes harder to stand out with features that the end user cares about.
>
> Recently been doing a bit of Pascal programming. Ultra fast compiler, low memory usage ( No GC ), cross compiler with massive platforms support, there own cross platform GUI ( Lazarus ). And yet they have the same issue. Pascal does not stand out despite being a mature and easy fast, efficient language. But it did get included in that article ;)
>
> D is technically C++ replacement and yet, C++ has been losing massive market shares but D has not been enjoying much from that loss.
>
> Frankly, i am also a bit lost of ideas as to what can D stand out. Its almost like D is going to Pascal route. People use it, it great, but beyond the core audience, its hard to reach out to others.

The pitch is that you can write very fast code quickly and easily, and make it the fastest in the world if you spend some time profiling and optimizing.  At the end, you'll have code that you can actually read easily and aren't scared to modify because you're not sure you understand how it works.  And all this without struggling with C's primitive features or Rust's borrow checker.

Is the dream fulfilled?  No, D still has plenty of rough edges and gaping holes:

https://issues.dlang.org/show_bug.cgi?id=17630

But with tech nowadays, you need a good foundational design before all else.  Yes, someone else may get out of the gate faster with the bicycle they built out of spare parts, but once you get the Millenium Falcon going, it will blast by them. ;)
July 14
On Friday, 14 July 2017 at 13:29:30 UTC, Joakim wrote:
> On Friday, 14 July 2017 at 09:29:27 UTC, Wulfklaue wrote:
>> On Friday, 14 July 2017 at 09:02:58 UTC, Stefan Koch wrote:
>>> The beauty of D lies in it's holistic approach.
[...]
> But with tech nowadays, you need a good foundational design before all else.  Yes, someone else may get out of the gate faster with the bicycle they built out of spare parts, but once you get the Millenium Falcon going, it will blast by them. ;)

Off topic - but do you know this https://lilium.com/ :-)
July 14
On Friday, 14 July 2017 at 08:57:17 UTC, Wulfklaue wrote:
> https://blog.sourced.tech/post/language_migrations/
>
> A recent article where github programming languages popularity and migration got analysed was very interesting but it showed one noticeable thing:
>
> A total lack of D even mentioned!!!
>
> When looking at other language ranking sites, D always scores better then Rust. Yet, Rust gets included in the ranking but D is ... nowhere to be seen. It gets even a bit annoying when its always Rust, Rust, Rust ... that keeps popping up. Seen it more and more how Rust is simply trampling over any D messaging.
>
> D... It really has no very unique feature that makes it noticeable.
>
> * No Galactic overlord ( C#, Go, ... )
> * no GC language that people can push until people there ears bleed ( Rust)
> * no really unique features that people care about to set it aside from C/C++, ...
> * It has the kitchen and sink but nobody talk about the kitchen and sink.
>
> I know people will jump onboard and start yelling how D has very unique features but from the "outside world" its always the same response. While more people are downloading D and trying it out, i barely see any independent D language blogs.
>
> Not to be a downer but D really in my eyes is missing that "unique" feature that people care about, that allows people to blog about the language...

I agree with the others that having no major company behind DLang is not helping from a money/resource/exposure point of view.  That said, there must be things we can do as a community to help improve the situation.

I can imagine for example that the community could focus on particular sectors where D excels, and create as much quality content as possible about how to use D to solve problems in those areas. Moreover having a push to get articles into the blogosphere and social media would do wonders.

Coming from a web development background (PHP), I think D is a wonderful language.  It's expressive, elegant, performant and fun.  Based on my experience, I think web development is one of those sectors where D could become more popular.

Expanding on web development using D, I must say that Vibe.d is a pleasure to work with and once the new release of Vibe.d is fully optimised, it should stack up favourably over using a PHP framework in terms of performance, memory consumption and scalability.  However if you're not a D programmer and you're looking at the vibe.d website for the first time, you'd probably leave for a few reasons without trying it. To address that I would recommend the following:

- Vibe.d has built in Redis and Mongo drivers which is excellent, but it may not be immediately obvious that you can in-fact work with MySQL and Postgres easily.  This is very important to many developers, and hence having a clear nav/menu item that links to a tutorial or two on the vibe.d website about integrating with those databases would be very useful to put that objection to bed.

- Once it's appropriate, do some benchmarks that compares D to PHP frameworks such as Slim, Silex, Lumen for common functionality such as CRUD operations with sessions, JSON serialisation etc, linking to the D code for reference.  Assuming D is easily the winner, really highlight the results.  Ultimately handling more requests on a single machine means money saved once web apps start scaling.

- Have some tutorials about using JS frameworks such as React/Angular/Vue.js and CSS frameworks such as Bootstrap and Foundation with Vibe.d.  Obviously these really aren't directly related to D or Vibe.d, it helps to show that D can be used easily for solutions using those technologies.

- Improving the vibe.d website look and feel, and having some clear and bold messaging on the home page about why you should use it.

Cheers.
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