On Wednesday, 11 March 2015 at 05:16:38 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> That doesn't ensure e.g. version compatibility etc. I repeat: my vision is to make vibe readily available with the D distribution, just like druntime and phobos. Of course dub is nice to include as well but not my main focus here.

It is possible to use vibe.d without dub but user experience would be very sub-par.

On Wednesday, 11 March 2015 at 05:16:38 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> That doesn't ensure e.g. version compatibility etc. I repeat: my vision is to make vibe readily available with the D distribution, just like druntime and phobos. Of course dub is nice to include as well but not my main focus here.

Andrei,

Including Dub is MUCH more important than including Vibe.

I am speaking from my limited experience, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but:

First, Vibe by itself will almost always not be enough. If you want to use Vibe, you'll also want the first-party and third-party add-ons to it, available on code.dlang.org. If you want database drivers, socket.io, protobuf, etc. etc. you will need to get them anyway via Dub.

Second, I don't know what's the current status of things, but two years ago the plan was that Vibe is too monolithic, and it needs to be split up into a core event system, networking / web server component, and HTML templating component. You can use Vibe for non-HTTP stuff, too.

Furthermore, Vibe is a library, with its own possibly-unstable API. Some projects may want to use an older version of Vibe with a newer version of the compiler. This is hypothetical, correct me if I'm wrong.

I think your vision of including Vibe with D is misguided. Ripping out just the core of what is now an ecosystem may even be a faux pas. Including Vibe without Dub is certainly a mistake, because inter-component versioning relies on Dub. And if you have Dub, Vibe and its components (including any older versions of such) are, like I said, a command away.

"Vladimir Panteleev"  wrote in message news:rexuctylycuzskcebotr@forum.dlang.org...

> Including Dub is MUCH more important than including Vibe.
>
> I am speaking from my limited experience, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but:

You're completely right. 

On Wednesday, 11 March 2015 at 05:43:17 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
> On Wednesday, 11 March 2015 at 05:16:38 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>> That doesn't ensure e.g. version compatibility etc. I repeat: my vision is to make vibe readily available with the D distribution, just like druntime and phobos. Of course dub is nice to include as well but not my main focus here.
>
> Andrei,
>
> Including Dub is MUCH more important than including Vibe.
>
> I am speaking from my limited experience, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but:

100% true. I have actually mentioned that when plan for 2015 was published but it didn't catch any attention.

On 3/10/15 10:29 PM, Dicebot wrote:
> On Wednesday, 11 March 2015 at 05:16:38 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>> That doesn't ensure e.g. version compatibility etc. I repeat: my
>> vision is to make vibe readily available with the D distribution, just
>> like druntime and phobos. Of course dub is nice to include as well but
>> not my main focus here.
>
> It is possible to use vibe.d without dub but user experience would be
> very sub-par.

Then I'm all for including dub as well. Let's not get lost in the technicalities: the point here is to provide a compelling experience out of the box. -- Andrei

On 3/10/15 10:43 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
> Including Vibe without Dub is certainly a mistake, because
> inter-component versioning relies on Dub.

Fine, let's include dub too.

> And if you have Dub, Vibe and
> its components (including any older versions of such) are, like I said,
> a command away.

One command away is too much.


Andrei

On Wednesday, 11 March 2015 at 06:30:52 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> One command away is too much.

Not when the build tool will fetch dependencies as part of the build process anyway. A 10-second wait is not worth the disadvantages of moving Vibe into D.

On 3/10/15 11:32 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
> On Wednesday, 11 March 2015 at 06:30:52 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>> One command away is too much.
>
> Not when the build tool will fetch dependencies as part of the build
> process anyway. A 10-second wait is not worth the disadvantages of
> moving Vibe into D.

Vladimir, please work with me on this. This is clearly subjective so it's really what you believe is good vs. what I believe is good. I want to make sure vibe releases are in sync and guaranteed to work with dmd, thus making for a perfectly smooth experience.

Don't forget things like the IE icon being on the desktop or not, or the default search engine, or the default homepage - all are big things although technically alternatives were always a few seconds away.

I don't have logical arguments, this could go either way. So work with me on this. Thanks.


Andrei

On Wednesday, 11 March 2015 at 06:45:17 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> On 3/10/15 11:32 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 11 March 2015 at 06:30:52 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>>> One command away is too much.
>>
>> Not when the build tool will fetch dependencies as part of the build
>> process anyway. A 10-second wait is not worth the disadvantages of
>> moving Vibe into D.
>
> Vladimir, please work with me on this. This is clearly subjective so it's really what you believe is good vs. what I believe is good. I want to make sure vibe releases are in sync and guaranteed to work with dmd, thus making for a perfectly smooth experience.
>
> Don't forget things like the IE icon being on the desktop or not, or the default search engine, or the default homepage - all are big things although technically alternatives were always a few seconds away.
>
> I don't have logical arguments, this could go either way. So work with me on this. Thanks.

As I have already argued, Vibe is only a piece of the puzzle.

I can only urge you to consult with someone deeply involved with Vibe (e.g. Sonke), as well as someone who uses Vibe and Dub heavily in production, before forcing a decision. It's clear that neither of us have enough direct experience with these projects to make a fully informed decision.

As you know, including IE with Windows was not something Microsoft got away with scot-free.

On 3/10/15 11:52 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
> I can only urge you to consult with someone deeply involved with Vibe
> (e.g. Sonke), as well as someone who uses Vibe and Dub heavily in
> production, before forcing a decision.

Sönke was up for it last time we communicated. This isn't forcing any decision as much as pushing things in order toward a greater goal. -- Andrei