May 23
On Saturday, 23 May 2020 at 17:49:59 UTC, aberba wrote:
>>>
>>>

I meant...

The community here has always been very week. I've often talked about lack of focus on community building. Every open source endeavor needs a strong community to make things happen under a collective effort. Until there's official push and dedication to making that happen, we'll always be overrun by things to do.

The more the hands on deck, the less it remains for each one to have to do.

I'm having a love and hate relationship with D right now.
May 23
On Saturday, 23 May 2020 at 17:27:15 UTC, mw wrote:
> But for industry usage, there is another side of the story, i.e accountability & company politics. The managers who can make decisions (together with the consequent responsibility) have to think about the worst scenario: what if the project missed the deadline? or even fail? Will s/he *bet* his/her job security or even career on a new language / library? Most managers sure won't.

Your run-of-the-mill manager would think like that, I guess. That is why, as far as I know, D is used commercially in companies that are managed by tech people; People who can properly put a value on the advantages and disadvantages of using D, and consider its significance for their chances of success versus risk of failure.

— Bastiaan.


May 23
On Saturday, 23 May 2020 at 18:45:25 UTC, Bastiaan Veelo wrote:
> On Saturday, 23 May 2020 at 17:27:15 UTC, mw wrote:
>> But for industry usage, there is another side of the story, i.e accountability & company politics. The managers who can make decisions (together with the consequent responsibility) have to think about the worst scenario: what if the project missed the deadline? or even fail? Will s/he *bet* his/her job security or even career on a new language / library? Most managers sure won't.
>
> Your run-of-the-mill manager would think like that, I guess.

your use of word are exactly right ... in supporting *my* statement :-).
(I even don’t bother the personal attack in your words)


“run-of-the-mill”:    What does the idiom run of the mill mean?
run-of-the-mill. COMMON You use run-of-the-mill to describe something or someone that is ordinary and not at all exciting.


Common means, say 80 ~ 90% of the managers
In contrast, extraordinary (tech-savvy) means 10% of the managers

And my original statement:

>> Will s/he *bet* his/her job security or even career on a new language / library? Most managers sure won't.

Most == common == run-of-the-mill  :-)


But, are we betting on extraordinary managers to expanding the adoption of D.

Probably we are, and that explains how much we have achieved after 20 years of D.

And how much has the ordinary language like Java has achieved in the past 20 years.
You want *popular* adopt, then you have to think about what those “common” run-of-the-mill managers will choose :-)

May 23
On Saturday, 23 May 2020 at 19:12:14 UTC, mw wrote:
> And how much has the ordinary language like Java has achieved in the past 20 years.
Sun played big role in Java's adoption. Most languages got popular because they had big corporate backer.
May 23
Speaking of ordinary vs extra-ordinary, do I need to mention the well known story of Paul Graham?

His startup, written in the most extraordinary programming language Lisp (IMHO), after sold to Yahoo, was rewritten to C++ and Perl:

https://discuss.fogcreek.com/joelonsoftware1/31402.html

This is another classic example of extraordinary-ness lose to ordinary-ness, unfortunately.


Frankly speaking, for my hobby project, I would want to use Lisp (I hope this won’t offend anybody here), but it’s really hard to get started without some good modern Lisp libraries for today’s IT infrastructure (hardware & software).

D is the 2nd on my language selection list. Language-wise, D certainly is superior to C++, and Java (among compiled languages that can offer decent performance). From my short D journey so far, I think if D’s supporting libraries can catchup with what the D language itself  has offered, D will have a much bright future.

May 24
On Saturday, 23 May 2020 at 20:06:42 UTC, welkam wrote:
> On Saturday, 23 May 2020 at 19:12:14 UTC, mw wrote:
>> And how much has the ordinary language like Java has achieved in the past 20 years.
> Sun played big role in Java's adoption. Most languages got popular because they had big corporate backer.


Then, who is the big corporate backer behind Python?

Well, I think it’s the community — the community who maintained those so many out-of-box, directly useable extraordinary packages: numpy, requests, pandas, keras, etc. to name just a few. Which are often sought after by other languages’ developers, and being simulated to keep the same interface, e.g. “what’s the numpy in C#? Java? C++?”

Sure, behind the scene, the work is done by C, but it’s numPY who takes the credits.

D has such a native compatibility with C, do we have any library that come to the close of the popularity of numpy?


I would say, many times it’s the library packages that attract the people to use a particular  language, after all, not so many people are as enthusiastic about a particular programming language features as you and me or anyone on this forum.

Normally, people use a language — and most importantly the *libraries* — to get their job done. That *usage* determines which language becomes trendy, becomes popular.

I would say libraries can make a language, or destroy one.

Numpy has made Python’s fame. I think currently D is on the other side of this spectrum (after 20 years).




May 24
On Saturday, 23 May 2020 at 17:10:27 UTC, mw wrote:
> On Saturday, 23 May 2020 at 07:27:50 UTC, Luis wrote:
>> Because this, I forked two small packages and get it under my wing, with the self-compromise that at least I will keep it working on future versions of D. However, I published they with different names and changing the module name. Something that should be totally unnecessary.
>>
>> And there are many packages with the same problem on the wild.
>
>
> Right, people forked & fixed, but the fix cannot be contributed back to the D community.
>
> Other users are still getting the original buggy version from dub, and don't have an easy way to find new patches.
>
> So the main blocker is to get the write permission (of the unmaintained packages) of the dub system, this will solve lots of these problems.
>
> Or we should setup a new policy that any new dub packages should give write permission to dlang-community by default.

https://github.com/dlang-community was created for that.
https://github.com/dlang-community/discussions#adoption-guidelines.
May 24
On Sunday, 24 May 2020 at 01:56:13 UTC, mw wrote:
>
> I would say libraries can make a language, or destroy one.
>
> Numpy has made Python’s fame. I think currently D is on the other side of this spectrum (after 20 years).

And Ruby had Rails...

The question is... we have something with these potential to become popular ?


May 24
On Saturday, 23 May 2020 at 19:12:14 UTC, mw wrote:
> On Saturday, 23 May 2020 at 18:45:25 UTC, Bastiaan Veelo wrote:
>> On Saturday, 23 May 2020 at 17:27:15 UTC, mw wrote:
>>> But for industry usage, there is another side of the story, i.e accountability & company politics. The managers who can make decisions (together with the consequent responsibility) have to think about the worst scenario: what if the project missed the deadline? or even fail? Will s/he *bet* his/her job security or even career on a new language / library? Most managers sure won't.
>>
>> Your run-of-the-mill manager would think like that, I guess.
>
> your use of word are exactly right ... in supporting *my* statement :-).

Indeed, I am supporting your statement.

> (I even don’t bother the personal attack in your words)

No attack intended!

> “run-of-the-mill”:    What does the idiom run of the mill mean?
> run-of-the-mill. COMMON You use run-of-the-mill to describe something or someone that is ordinary and not at all exciting.
>
>
> Common means, say 80 ~ 90% of the managers
> In contrast, extraordinary (tech-savvy) means 10% of the managers
>
> And my original statement:
>
>>> Will s/he *bet* his/her job security or even career on a new language / library? Most managers sure won't.
>
> Most == common == run-of-the-mill  :-)

Yes, that is what I mean. It is just my observation.

> But, are we betting on extraordinary managers to expanding the adoption of D.
>
> Probably we are, and that explains how much we have achieved after 20 years of D.

I don’t think there’s much betting being done around here. We just gather around a shared treasure and each of us (individuals and companies) invest in it as much as we can and want to. Would it be cool if using D would be a no-brainer for every manager? Probably, but getting there with volunteers only is unlikely. Personally I am happy that D is still around even after 20 years, so that I can use it professionally. And I made a considerable investment to make it that way.

Some people are disappointed that D is not as widely adopted as they would like it to be, and somehow feel the need to put the blame somewhere. I don’t see the point in that, I’d say just use it if you want to, and make it better if you want to.

Cheers, and welcome!

— Bastiaan.


May 24
On Sunday, 24 May 2020 at 01:56:13 UTC, mw wrote:
> On Saturday, 23 May 2020 at 20:06:42 UTC, welkam wrote:

> Then, who is the big corporate backer behind Python?
>
> Well, I think it’s the community — the community who maintained those so many out-of-box, directly useable extraordinary packages: numpy, requests, pandas, keras, etc. to name just a few. Which are often sought after by other languages’ developers, and being simulated to keep the same interface, e.g. “what’s the numpy in C#? Java? C++?”
>
> Sure, behind the scene, the work is done by C, but it’s numPY who takes the credits.

>
>
> I would say, many times it’s the library packages that attract the people to use a particular  language, after all, not so many people are as enthusiastic about a particular programming language features as you and me or anyone on this forum.
>
> Normally, people use a language — and most importantly the *libraries* — to get their job done. That *usage* determines which language becomes trendy, becomes popular.
>
> I would say libraries can make a language, or destroy one.
>
> Numpy has made Python’s fame. I think currently D is on the other side of this spectrum (after 20 years).

I couldn't say better. You've said it all.

I use Node.Js MORE not because JavaScript is technically the best language out there, its because it gets things done. Mostly the packages on NPM. Its what I care about...and I can confidently say that for a lot of devs using it...its why I came to it, its why I stayed. How perfect or technically solid a language is doesn't matter to run-the-mill devs (and they are the majority...80%-90%), its the ecosystem of RELIABLE tools and libraries/packages to get job done.

Somehow we haven't figured this out. We have the most brilliant engineers doing the impossible here but that alone is not enough. More devs means more contributors...especially for those less technical stuff (arguably the majority of our problems)
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