On Thursday, 19 October 2017 at 08:36:55 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:
>
> I agree. I had this mindset once, but now I'm completely demotivated, and you now know because of what and who.
>

You seem passionate. There are never enough people working on things. There's a lot of ways you can help improve the experience for newbies. In some sense, though, you can pick your battles. The longer you've been reading the forums, the better you may have a sense of it. When I first started reading them, I was gung-ho and excited about some debates, but now I'm just like meh. And I'm not even sure I've been on here two years. Find something you can contribute to, or start a new project, and work on that.

On Thursday, 19 October 2017 at 09:20:11 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:
> Here is the list of D tools that I've open sourced so that PHP, JS and Go web developers may at least have a first experiment with D :
>
> https://github.com/senselogic?tab=repositories
>
> I hope that making them aware of the existence of the D language will make them think about its use as a valuable scripting language.
>
> And I also hope that one day D will be promoted a lot for this use, including for web development scripting.

Ok. Clearly the problem, is not your lack of ideas, or contributions ;-)

That is interesting stuff you're doing...goes well over my head though. ;-)

There is an good old saying, that goes like this:

"The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to
change; the realist adjusts the sails."

Adjust the sails, and enjoy the ride ;-)

and ...remember... "Don’t Let The Perfect Be The Enemy Of The Good"

> and ...remember... "Don’t Let The Perfect Be The Enemy Of The Good"

True saying. I should apply it more often...

On Thursday, 19 October 2017 at 08:17:04 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:
> On Thursday, 19 October 2017 at 07:04:14 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner wrote:
>> On Thursday, 19 October 2017 at 06:32:10 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> OK actually my initial proposal was this one :
>>>
>>> http://forum.dlang.org/post/mailman.6425.1503876081.31550.digitalmars-d-bugs@puremagic.com
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> And the definitive answer about that is of course something like "Hey man, it's open source, it's all made by volunteers on their free time, so it must be complicated, what did you expect ?" and "Make all the changes by yourself if you don't like it the way it is.".
>>>
>>> Seriously ?
>>>
>>> OK, message received. If putting two download links per detected platform on the main page is too much work for the volunteers who maintains the landing page, so let's keep it the way it is. I have a lot of work and a family life too, no problem...
>>
>>
>> I remember those events very differently, so here they are for posterity:
>>
>> http://forum.dlang.org/thread/llreleiqxjllthmlgyhh@forum.dlang.org?page=1
>> http://forum.dlang.org/post/cxunwfnhdrlpujjxzraq@forum.dlang.org
>
> That's exactly what I said.
>
> Thanks for confirming what I have written.

This does not confirm what you wrote, because what you referred to as your initial proposal was the result of the previous thread I linked to, not the basis for it.

>
> And please stop the personal attacks, thanks.

What I wrote is not - and cannot be construed as - a personal attack (as it does not state - or imply - anything about you as a person). I consider your accusation slander, however.

On Thursday, 19 October 2017 at 09:10:04 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:
>
> For instance, here I say that I don't agree that the "easy" way to use D is by using FreeBSD instead of Windows.
>
> Here is the answer :
>
> "I remember those events very differently, so here they are for posterity:

That post of mine is not an answer to that statement, as can be seen by what exactly I quoted.

>>> I remember those events very differently, so here they are for posterity:
>>>
>>> http://forum.dlang.org/thread/llreleiqxjllthmlgyhh@forum.dlang.org?page=1
>>> http://forum.dlang.org/post/cxunwfnhdrlpujjxzraq@forum.dlang.org
>>
>> That's exactly what I said.
>>
>> Thanks for confirming what I have written.
>
> This does not confirm what you wrote, because what you referred to as your initial proposal was the result of the previous thread I linked to, not the basis for it.

Really ?

You are saying that your WHOLE point is that I CAN'T use the word 'initial' when talking about my prior suggestion because I've unfortunately changed a few words of my post when copy pasting it in the bug tracker, ON YOUR ADVICE !!!

OMG LOL

On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 11:43:11AM +0000, jmh530 via Digitalmars-d wrote: [...]
> In some sense, though, you can pick your battles. The longer you've been reading the forums, the better you may have a sense of it. When I first started reading them, I was gung-ho and excited about some debates, but now I'm just like meh. And I'm not even sure I've been on here two years. Find something you can contribute to, or start a new project, and work on that.

+1.  I used to actively participate in forum debates.  Nowadays, meh. At the end of the day, what matters is whether somebody picks up the baton and actually starts contributing.  So that's what I do these days. See something I don't like in Phobos?  Fix it, submit a PR.  See a typo on the website?  Fix it, submit a PR.  See something I don't know how to fix?  Dig into the code, learn how to do it.  Maybe I'll discover I'm in way over my head.  That's OK, I still learn something along the way. Maybe next time I'll be knowledgeable enough to submit a PR.

Participating in a forum debate is the easiest thing to do, but also the least productive, all things considered.  I can win arguments, or lose arguments, but after all that is said and done, what has changed in the codebase?  Nothing.  And what are the chances of somebody else picking up the torch and carrying it through?  Judging from our track record, practically nil.

What does makes a change is when somebody writes the code. (And by "code" here I include also things like HTML/CSS for the website.)  A forum proposal, say a website change, would have so much more weight if the person making the proposal has a PR sitting in the queue that people can decide whether or not to merge.  It sends the message that (1) the person cares enough about the issue to actually invest the time and energy to implement it (not just talk about it), and (2) the person is personally committed to make it happen and see it through.  Also, (3) should the consensus turn out to be "yes let's do it", it can be implemented right away, instead of a vacuous "OK, we finally agreed to do this.  So who's gonna actually write the code? Hmm? ... Nobody? Oh well, I guess nobody cares enough to actually do it. Too bad."


T

-- 
Gone Chopin. Bach in a minuet.

On Thursday, 19 October 2017 at 16:43:51 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 11:43:11AM +0000, jmh530 via Digitalmars-d wrote: [...]
>> In some sense, though, you can pick your battles. The longer you've been reading the forums, the better you may have a sense of it. When I first started reading them, I was gung-ho and excited about some debates, but now I'm just like meh. And I'm not even sure I've been on here two years. Find something you can contribute to, or start a new project, and work on that.
>
> +1.  I used to actively participate in forum debates.  Nowadays, meh. At the end of the day, what matters is whether somebody picks up the baton and actually starts contributing.  So that's what I do these days. See something I don't like in Phobos?  Fix it, submit a PR.  See a typo on the website?  Fix it, submit a PR.  See something I don't know how to fix?  Dig into the code, learn how to do it.  Maybe I'll discover I'm in way over my head.  That's OK, I still learn something along the way. Maybe next time I'll be knowledgeable enough to submit a PR.
>
> Participating in a forum debate is the easiest thing to do, but also the least productive, all things considered.  I can win arguments, or lose arguments, but after all that is said and done, what has changed in the codebase?  Nothing.  And what are the chances of somebody else picking up the torch and carrying it through?  Judging from our track record, practically nil.
>
> What does makes a change is when somebody writes the code. (And by "code" here I include also things like HTML/CSS for the website.)  A forum proposal, say a website change, would have so much more weight if the person making the proposal has a PR sitting in the queue that people can decide whether or not to merge.  It sends the message that (1) the person cares enough about the issue to actually invest the time and energy to implement it (not just talk about it), and (2) the person is personally committed to make it happen and see it through.  Also, (3) should the consensus turn out to be "yes let's do it", it can be implemented right away, instead of a vacuous "OK, we finally agreed to do this.  So who's gonna actually write the code? Hmm? ... Nobody? Oh well, I guess nobody cares enough to actually do it. Too bad."
>
>
> T

If something is wrong on your local D installation (library bug etc) and you fix it, you benefit from it, so the work is useful even if the change is refused on the public codebase, so no problem with that.

Changing a website without the owner content is automatically a waste of time.

Especially in this case. I don't need or use it locally, and in this particular case, what I suggest is the complete opposite of the current marketing strategy, and I've already been told that this won't happen in any foreseeing future.

So I'll follow this smart advice that I've been given, and pick another battle.

On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 05:13:01PM +0000, Ecstatic Coder via Digitalmars-d wrote: [...]
> If something is wrong on your local D installation (library bug etc) and you fix it, you benefit from it, so the work is useful even if the change is refused on the public codebase, so no problem with that.
> 
> Changing a website without the owner content is automatically a waste of time.

I assume you meant "consent".


> Especially in this case. I don't need or use it locally, and in this particular case, what I suggest is the complete opposite of the current marketing strategy, and I've already been told that this won't happen in any foreseeing future.

Told by whom?  Even Andrei or Walter can be convinced over time, if one is persistent enough. :-D  There have been cases of this in the past.

Of course, this presumes that one cares about the issue enough to persist in the face of opposition, which may or may not be the case here.


T

-- 
What did the alien say to Schubert? "Take me to your lieder."

On Thursday, 19 October 2017 at 18:10:04 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> Told by whom?

The responses here seem to be a good indicator that he is wasting his time. The past responses in similar topics.

> Even Andrei or Walter can be convinced over time, if one is persistent enough. :-D  There have been cases of this in the past.
> Of course, this presumes that one cares about the issue enough to persist in the face of opposition, which may or may not be the case here.

You mean like those where people are told, if you write a proposal it may get accepted. Then the author does all the work, writes the code changes, gets pushed to make more changes, gets ignored over time and loses interest, only for year later it showing up again and the process repeats? And nothing gets done to the point the author simply moved on to other languages. Yes, those have been very successful ( sarcasm ) in persuading people to put time into D development.

D has a bad track record with implementations of proposals, even when the actual code has been written. There has always been a standard: Walter writes it, its going to get accepted with a high ratio in one form or another. Somebody who is not a core member, well ...

But this is my last response on this. Moving on to a different language because from my point of view, D will not be very open / marketing focused to non C++ developers. And some people seem very willing to push people there buttons when topics like this come up. As we see in this topic. I regret that the actions of few constantly ruin the work of others ( to bring people in ). What seems to be a recurring theme.

But let bygones be bygones. Good fortune to you all.