On Wednesday, 1 March 2017 at 17:25:07 UTC, Jack Stouffer wrote:
> I agree. We have a lot to improve in terms of marketing.
>
> Mainly our messaging is jumbled.
>
> Rust = memory safety
> Go = the best runtime around
> D = everything I guess?
>
> And the problem is that D is good at everything (IMO), so how do we go about marketing to everyone without getting our messages mixed up in the public's view.

To me, D's key marketing feature has always been it's incredible static introspection and metaprogramming abilities.

On 03/01/2017 08:35 AM, Craig Dillabaugh wrote:
>
> However the forum does often answer some highly important and relevant
> questions.  My favorite so far was the "If I wanted to jump from an
> airplane flying at 30,000 feet with nothing but bubble wrap for
> protection, how much would I need?"
>
>
> Since you are no doubt curious, I believe the answer was you would need
> to be wrapped in a ball about 4m in radius.  They never explained how
> you would get that on the plane though.

Hah :) Sounds very xkcd.

On Wednesday, 1 March 2017 at 17:09:51 UTC, Jared Jeffries wrote:

> I think it should instead be advertised as the perfect language to learn programming and web development, because that's where it really shines, IMHO.

I agree, but we need an intro to programming class using D as the language in order to do that. Most of the materials for the language assume you have programming experience. You can't just say that D allows you to use pointers and other low-level constructs, you have to explain what a pointer is and what you do with it. The same goes for functional programming, OOP, contracts, compile time, and so on. That's a big task. Ali's book is great as an introduction to the language, but not really sufficient as a beginning programming tutorial.

On 03/01/2017 12:25 PM, Jack Stouffer wrote:
> I agree. We have a lot to improve in terms of marketing.
>
> Mainly our messaging is jumbled.
>
> Rust = memory safety
> Go = the best runtime around
> D = everything I guess?
>
> And the problem is that D is good at everything (IMO), so how do we go
> about marketing to everyone without getting our messages mixed up in the
> public's view.

Yea, its kinda depressing that programmers will be cold towards D, and admit flat-out it's because D *isn't* a one-trick pony centered around once single gimmick. (I've encountered that myself. Such a facepalm inducer. "Polyglot programming" has rotted people's brains.)

On Wednesday, 1 March 2017 at 18:34:22 UTC, bachmeier wrote:
> On Wednesday, 1 March 2017 at 17:09:51 UTC, Jared Jeffries wrote:
>
>> I think it should instead be advertised as the perfect language to learn programming and web development, because that's where it really shines, IMHO.
>
> I agree, but we need an intro to programming class using D as the language in order to do that. Most of the materials for the language assume you have programming experience. You can't just say that D allows you to use pointers and other low-level constructs, you have to explain what a pointer is and what you do with it. The same goes for functional programming, OOP, contracts, compile time, and so on. That's a big task. Ali's book is great as an introduction to the language, but not really sufficient as a beginning programming tutorial.

Thats the gab I'm trying to fill https://github.com/aberba/learn-coding

> There's a reason stackoverflow and softwareengineering.stackexchange delete these kinds of questions: they're counter productive and can't actually be answered.
>
> The question "Which is the best programming language to learn in 2017" is one such question. It comes down strictly to opinion and circumstance. Because of this, the "answers" are either answering a different question or just ads for the user's favorite language. It seems most of the top answers in that thread took the question to mean "Which language would be most likely to get me a job in 2017", which isn't the same.
>
> Programming questions on Quora are the dumping ground for bad SO questions.
>
> Most D power users spend their time either on the IRC or on SO.

I agree with you, the question is vague, etc.

But my point is : this is exactly the kind of question beginners like me use to git this advice on which language they should learn.

I did some research with google with the keywords "best programming language to learn", which lead me to what people say on Quora and similar websites.

Nothing fancy. And I didn't ask a more specific question myself, I wouldn't probably have read anything about D, which is sad.

D is great for students, so my advice is to stop advertising D so much for power users, and promoting it more as the best language out there to learn object oriented programming, before digging into Java, C++, Javascript etc.

Because that's where D is strong : it regroups all their features (reference types like in Java/C#/Javascript, native array/maps/slices/foreach like in Javascript, structs/pointers/templates like in C++), while keeping almost the same syntax.

I've personally ported my little experiment programs from D to Java, C#, C++ and even Javascript with incredible ease.

I'm very impressed how D's syntax and native features make it actually a common denominator to all these languages.

That's really where it is stronger than any other programming language on earth : it's the simple, pragmatic and efficient synthesis of the current mainstream languages.

> Thats the gab I'm trying to fill https://github.com/aberba/learn-coding

GREAT INITIATIVE !!!

On Wednesday, 1 March 2017 at 18:34:22 UTC, bachmeier wrote:
> On Wednesday, 1 March 2017 at 17:09:51 UTC, Jared Jeffries wrote:
>
>> I think it should instead be advertised as the perfect language to learn programming and web development, because that's where it really shines, IMHO.
>
> I agree, but we need an intro to programming class using D as the language in order to do that. Most of the materials for the language assume you have programming experience. You can't just say that D allows you to use pointers and other low-level constructs, you have to explain what a pointer is and what you do with it. The same goes for functional programming, OOP, contracts, compile time, and so on. That's a big task. Ali's book is great as an introduction to the language, but not really sufficient as a beginning programming tutorial.

???  I think the book is exactly written to work as an beginning programming tutorial.
May be my impression was wrong.

What would be very useful, would be to have one .deb learning package,
which including compiler an ide many simple tutorial like examples and
the ability to write simple programs with gui output.

Do you know basic256?
https://sourceforge.net/projects/kidbasic/
It offers a convenient programming experience for beginners.

I started to learn programming (BASIC) with an traditional home computer in the 80's
(Schneider/Amstrad CPC6128).

The best thing was, you only needed to switch it on and only with typing "DRAW 640,400" a line was drawn from the bottom left to the top right corner.

Now give someone a new computer and ask him to do the same?
How many years of computer experience will be needed?
How many tool would I need to install?


Regards mt.

On Wednesday, 1 March 2017 at 18:37:46 UTC, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) wrote:
> On 03/01/2017 12:25 PM, Jack Stouffer wrote:
>> I agree. We have a lot to improve in terms of marketing.
>>
>> Mainly our messaging is jumbled.
>>
>> Rust = memory safety
>> Go = the best runtime around
>> D = everything I guess?
>>
>> And the problem is that D is good at everything (IMO), so how do we go
>> about marketing to everyone without getting our messages mixed up in the
>> public's view.
>
> Yea, its kinda depressing that programmers will be cold towards D, and admit flat-out it's because D *isn't* a one-trick pony centered around once single gimmick. (I've encountered that myself. Such a facepalm inducer. "Polyglot programming" has rotted people's brains.)

We need a powerful message that resonates. I think performance is the strongest message and it directly attacks people's major and misplaced concern about D's garbage collector.

> We need a powerful message that resonates. I think performance is the strongest message and it directly attacks people's major and misplaced concern about D's garbage collector.

Indeed, D gives better performance than other similar garbage collected languages like Java, C#, etc.

But I don't think that performance is really what will decide their programmers to give D a try, because they are used to their current ecosystem, and are comfortable in delivering their applications in time with it.

IMHO, what really matters to a developer experimenting a new language are :
- Is the new language easy to learn ? How long will it take me to become productive with it ?
- Is it really worth the effort ? How will it help me in getting the job done ?

D is easier to learn, it's *both* more programmer-friendly (arrays, maps, slices, foreach loops, references types, closures), less verbose and more complete (templates, etc) than similar mainstream languages.

Basically you just have to learn some sort of curated C++/Java mix.

And in return you enjoy the *expressivity and productivity* of a scripting-language like Javascript *without sacrifying performance or safety*.