On 1/3/2013 12:25 AM, Dmitry Olshansky wrote:
> 1/3/2013 12:22 PM, Russel Winder пишет:
>> I threw in the towel on Ubuntu when Unity came out as the default UI.
>>
> Going OT but can't agree more :)

I use a command prompt, and don't particular care about the UI <g>.

On 1/3/2013 12:06 AM, Russel Winder wrote:
> No idea I'm afraid. On the other hand if an SSD does not emulate the
> controller API for a SATA disk, then it isn't a disk, it's a something
> else.

The OS needs to support TRIM, or the SSD disk will get very slow.


> Does D have a CI suite of machines?
>
> A CI system would have Windows, OS X, Linux, instances for 32-bit and
> 64-bit machines and be programmable to retain the distribution product.
> This would give a rolling distribution for those working at the bleeding
> edge, not to mention actually being a CI system.

I do have a "farm" of machines for building, but I don't know what a CI system is.

I use ubuntu 12.10 with ext4 on two ssd drives and it works great. Just
don't use btrfs it is terribly slow (last tested in about Nov 2012).
 On 3 Jan 2013 10:40, "Walter Bright" <newshound2@digitalmars.com> wrote:

> On 1/3/2013 12:06 AM, Russel Winder wrote:
>
>> No idea I'm afraid. On the other hand if an SSD does not emulate the controller API for a SATA disk, then it isn't a disk, it's a something else.
>>
>
> The OS needs to support TRIM, or the SSD disk will get very slow.
>
>
>  Does D have a CI suite of machines?
>>
>> A CI system would have Windows, OS X, Linux, instances for 32-bit and 64-bit machines and be programmable to retain the distribution product. This would give a rolling distribution for those working at the bleeding edge, not to mention actually being a CI system.
>>
>
> I do have a "farm" of machines for building, but I don't know what a CI system is.
>
>

On 1/3/2013 12:06 AM, Russel Winder wrote:
> On Wed, 2013-01-02 at 11:30 -0800, Walter Bright wrote:
>> Does the latest Ubuntu work properly with SSD drives? I know 10.10 does not. I
>> have an extra SSD drive I want to try.
>
> No idea I'm afraid.

Googling it reveals the usual wishy-washy answers in Ubuntu support forums, even for 12.10. Nobody seems to know.

With Windows 7, it's easy. Yes. End of story.

On Thu, 2013-01-03 at 00:55 -0800, Walter Bright wrote: […]
> Googling it reveals the usual wishy-washy answers in Ubuntu support forums, even for 12.10. Nobody seems to know.

Googling for anything to do with Ubuntu is not the issue, the issue is Linux and SSD.  Given the issue about a special command that needs to be issues by the OS (*), it all depends on which version of Linux has that. I assume 3.6 and later have it as there are happily working Linux Ultrabooks out there, so Linux and SSD work, Intel demands it. The fact that you are on 10.10 currently is a potential issue, as the Linux support may not have been smoothed out by then.

> With Windows 7, it's easy. Yes. End of story.

Windows, delete it. End of Story.


(*) SSD should have all the flashing management algorithms built in to the firmware, the OS should not be able to distinguish an SSD from a random access sequence of bytes accessed as a SATA device.  We were using flash devices in 2004 when all this was already sorted.

-- 
Russel. ============================================================================= Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.winder@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder

On Thu, 2013-01-03 at 00:32 -0800, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 1/2/2013 11:53 PM, Russel Winder wrote:
> > On Wed, 2013-01-02 at 13:18 -0800, Walter Bright wrote: […]
> >> I don't store email on the server, I store it locally.
> >
> > I think that this is at the heart of your mail problems. It means you rely on one and only one computer for email. I would find this unworkable: I find IMAP the only solution that works for me and my collection of laptops and workstation.
> >
> > This has the dies effect of the data stored on the client being removable because it is reconstructible.
> 
> I know. On the other hand, you have control over your email data.

I don't see that local or server-based storage makes any difference to the ability to manage email. But maybe I am missing something about your particular workflow.

-- 
Russel. ============================================================================= Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.winder@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder

On 1/3/2013 1:20 AM, Russel Winder wrote:
> (*) SSD should have all the flashing management algorithms built in to
> the firmware, the OS should not be able to distinguish an SSD from a
> random access sequence of bytes accessed as a SATA device.  We were
> using flash devices in 2004 when all this was already sorted.


This is incorrect. Google SSD TRIM for why. The short version is yes, SSD drives will work without TRIM, but will run slowly. Operating system TRIM support is necessary for fast SSD operation. TRIM is how the operating system tells the SSD drive that certain blocks no longer contain useful data, and can be recycled.

The normal non-TRIM behavior is the only way the drive finds out that blocks are no longer used is when a write is issued for them.

Windows 7 has TRIM support, Windows XP does not. I have an SSD drive in an XP machine, it runs as slow as a spinning disk. An SSD in Win7, with TRIM, runs like lightning.

On Thu, 2013-01-03 at 00:34 -0800, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 1/3/2013 12:25 AM, Dmitry Olshansky wrote:
> > 1/3/2013 12:22 PM, Russel Winder пишет:
> >> I threw in the towel on Ubuntu when Unity came out as the default UI.
> >>
> > Going OT but can't agree more :)
> 
> I use a command prompt, and don't particular care about the UI <g>.

There was a revolution in Debian, Ubuntu, and Fedora that will affect you even if you are just a command line person (as I am).  Ubuntu moved to Unity which only Canonical staff seem to like. Debian and Fedora stuck with GNOME 3 and the Gnome Shell, which many people hate but actually a lot of people (including me now, but not originally) really prefer over GNOME 2. Various high profile people (cf. Linus Torvalds) panned GNOME Shell and skipped off to XFCE on GNOME 3 and then KDE.

His attack on GNOME Shell was a bit OTT, but his move to KDE is entirely his choice.

Even if you just manage command line terminals, the evolution will hit you.

It's analogous to the way Windows 7 evolved into Windows 8, but not so revolutionary.

-- 
Russel. ============================================================================= Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.winder@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder

CI == Continuous Integration

>> Does D have a CI suite of machines?
>>
>> A CI system would have Windows, OS X, Linux, instances for 32-bit and
>> 64-bit machines and be programmable to retain the distribution product.
>> This would give a rolling distribution for those working at the bleeding
>> edge, not to mention actually being a CI system.
>
> I do have a "farm" of machines for building, but I don't know what a CI system is.

On Thu, 2013-01-03 at 01:26 -0800, Walter Bright wrote: […]
> This is incorrect. Google SSD TRIM for why. The short version is yes, SSD drives will work without TRIM, but will run slowly. Operating system TRIM support is necessary for fast SSD operation. TRIM is how the operating system tells the SSD drive that certain blocks no longer contain useful data, and can be recycled.
> 
> The normal non-TRIM behavior is the only way the drive finds out that blocks are no longer used is when a write is issued for them.

This is what you get for backward compatibility, i.e. using flash on the same IO device and device driver as was designed for rotating rust hardware. SSD is just a whole hacky thing and instead the motherboards and OSes should evolve to allow the flash to be seen as a memory extension – which is what we were doing in 2004 very successfully with embedded systems. The very existence of TRIM indicates a systemic problem.

-- 
Russel. ============================================================================= Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.winder@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder