On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 09:11:44 UTC, ketmar wrote:
> because Business Developers wants it that way. they are... well... Doing Business, and they wants someone to maintain all the libraries they are using. for free, of course. and what can be better than to offload this burden to language developers?

... really? This is the attitude here.

> almost each time we hear about "D should have XXX in standard library", it comes either from Business Developer,

The reason why people prefer official supported library functionality is because:

* Your guaranteed that this will have maintainers. Unlike alternative unofficial solutions.

* Guaranteed for a official stable API that will be similar across libraries. Cutting down on time for new developers to get familiar with the language.

* Having a load of different Independent libraries that "do the same but not exactly the same" is simply bad practice.

Case and point: https://code.dlang.org/search?q=mysql

No official library, some are not supported, some are duplicates with minor changes, no official API or standard... can go on a long time.

If your idea is that people need to sift past the junk each time and hope that the library they pick is still supported in 5 years, your dead wrong. It does not work like that in any business environment. If you want a language to be adopted beyond hobbyist, you need to offer more then simply a language. Languages are a dime a dozen, well supported languages with a thriving eco-system that is a different market.

People seem to have it in their head that its a good thing to not have a lot of officially supported libraries. Well, from a business perspective it is simply not feasible to adopt a language, when it only offers, quote: "10% improvement", and the rest of the eco-system relies on those same (unpaid) people. People who one day can simply drop all support on  packages.

> or from Business Developer in Disguise. 'cause they always want someone to work for 'em for free.

I have no problem paying as do a lot of people but do you hand over your money to projects where to attitude does not align with yours? I put money in several projects only to see no good come from it. I learn from my business mistakes.

Do i need a language that keeps pushing more advanced features while introducing regressions all the time. Or do i prefer a stable language with official supported libraries that is easy to learn for new employees and has no baggage holding it back. Pick one ... and guess what gets a language adopted by us.

I noticed after reading topics how there is a very clear group of people, with a real motivation to maintain the status quo. They have found their language and use any excuse to not gain a mass market audience.

Community attitude is just as important as the language. As a language D may been gaining exposure but if you dislike new people coming here and pointing out major and minor issues, then that exposure is useless and will only reinforce a negative image for the language. No point in putting time feeding trolls, time is money after all.

Zhù nǐ hǎo yùn! Wish you luck!

On 13/02/2018 11:45 AM, Bo wrote:
> 
> Community attitude is just as important as the language. As a language D may been gaining exposure but if you dislike new people coming here and pointing out major and minor issues, then that exposure is useless and will only reinforce a negative image for the language. No point in putting time feeding trolls, time is money after all.

We like constructive reports. Most of the time however outsiders don't provide or willing to help with that.

Some of us do attempt at the very least to just ignore the non-productive ones, since it isn't going to help anyone here.

On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 01:46:02 UTC, Token wrote:
>
> D should recognize and embrace its nature as research platform/compiler enthusiasts playground favorite.

I think this is a really good point, and one that D should be proud of.

That is pretty much how I see D, and I really enjoy seeing how people 'play' with it. You get some really interesting outcomes, including this one I saw today:

"abc".repeat(1000).joiner.writeln;

https://forum.dlang.org/thread/nmewpndfcyvidcvxcxdo@forum.dlang.org

Stuff like that comes from playing around.

But.. I would add.. that D already can (and already does) solve a great number of real world programming problems, while falling short of solving many others.

But modern day demands of programming languages are really complex, and getting more and more so by the day...as the world seeks to become more and more connected - and 'safer'.

Personally, I think C++ has more challenges to contend with than D, in terms of becoming a modern day programming language.

On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 11:45:00 UTC, Bo wrote:
> * Your guaranteed that this will have maintainers. Unlike alternative unofficial solutions.
>

This is where you're wrong.

Considering that D is an open-source language, nothing is guaranteed.

Neither is there any guarantee who works on what and the same people who works on the "unofficial libraries" might as well be the __same__ people who works on the "official libraries"... That is actually the case in many of the __popular__ "unofficial" libraries, that they also contribute to D itself.

> * Guaranteed for a official stable API that will be similar across libraries. Cutting down on time for new developers to get familiar with the language.
>

 I partially agree with this, but again history shows that D's official API sometimes isn't as reliable as other unofficial equivalents. There's just a lot of restrictions in how the API is designed in ex. Phobos, which is why new modules sometimes just gets frozen for an unknown time and/or gets completely abandoned.

That same issue can be said about some unofficial libraries, but in those cases it's usually just because they don't gather the attention they deserve and that is where I agree with your point.

Perhaps just adding unofficial libraries as official libraries would be the best solution.

> * Having a load of different Independent libraries that "do the same but not exactly the same" is simply bad practice.
>
> Case and point: https://code.dlang.org/search?q=mysql
>
> No official library, some are not supported, some are duplicates with minor changes, no official API or standard... can go on a long time.
>

My point above stands here too.

When god (walter) create eden (dlang) the man (bo the biz developer) is very happy.
Man thinks he is in heaven.
Until man eat the forbidden apple(the ecosystem library, editor, tools).
Now man understand he is in hell.

Walter has created great language.
But this language is not first class( first choice) on those platform.
1. Windows : .net , java etc
2. Ios : swift etc
3. Android : java kotlin, no d
4. Linux : c java, may be d , etc

From what i understand( i am very sorry if i am wrong). D almost get customer, well almost. Bo was happy with the language but not ecosystem.

For biz developer they expect very few bumps. This is normal.

So what can d-community do : create subforum so that they know the bumps so they can avoid them.
Ask what they are building (the general only), on what platform, what db, their background.
Tell them what library you use, workaround, platform compiler odds tell them how you succeed. Provide them short cut : general build files, code management, idioms, etc.
In short words : may be subforum for mentorship(can be free or paid). Separate from learn forum.

It lowers heart attack , hipertension, anger, and disappointment.



Today big companies like microsoft, apple create great languages for their platform AND partial supported language on other platform.
Eg : swift for ios is official, swift on win is community.

These language serve as honey because they give away for free to attracts us (the bee) so their product ecosystem (software or hardware) survive.

D will never be rival for these language on that platform. For D to survive it must be the only champion on a platform or at least one of champion. My best guess is resource limited platform or /and linux.

On those resource limited hardware platform, now, only 6 or 8 language but no clear champion ( for me, c and cpp not a champion, but i will use them if no alternative. ).
I think betterc and nogc feature will make that happen. Lets hope so.



But for now all d-community can do is serve that specific company need for success, for their thirst of money. And hope their feedback to the community when they want to leverage their requirement such as library used, running platform etc.


Again i am sorry if i offend someone. Or i give you wrong info.