On 08/01/2013 02:14 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
>
> BTW, you don't think the Prius is a status symbol? :-)

Nope, they're an affordable and practical car, and quite common these days. Tesla, now that's a status symbol.

On 8/1/2013 11:37 AM, Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
> On 08/01/2013 02:14 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
>>
>> BTW, you don't think the Prius is a status symbol? :-)
>
> Nope, they're an affordable and practical car, and quite common these days.
> Tesla, now that's a status symbol.

"as long as the hybrid remains a symbol of a driver’s commitment to the environment, especially among the nation’s wealthiest, the future of the Prius should be secure."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/eco-nomics/2012/08/09/is-the-toyota-prius-the-latest-status-symbol-of-the-wealthy/


The Prius isn't very green, either:

"When you factor in all the energy it takes to drive and build a Prius it takes almost 50% more energy than a Hummer. In a study by CNW Marketing called "Dust to Dust", researchers discovered that the Prius costs and average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles (the expected lifespan of a hybrid). On the other hand the Hummer costs $1.95 per mile over an expected 300,000 miles. Which means that the Hummer will last three times as long and use less energy than the Prius."

http://www.thetorquereport.com/2007/03/toyotas_prius_is_less_efficien.html


It's not easy being green :-)

On Thursday, 1 August 2013 at 18:56:03 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
> It's not easy being green :-)

ALL I CAN THINK ABOUT IS THE CHEETOS COMMERCIALS!

"It's not easy being cheesy"

On Thu, 01 Aug 2013 11:56:02 -0700, Walter Bright <newshound2@digitalmars.com> wrote:

> On 8/1/2013 11:37 AM, Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
>> On 08/01/2013 02:14 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
>>>
>>> BTW, you don't think the Prius is a status symbol? :-)
>>
>> Nope, they're an affordable and practical car, and quite common these days.
>> Tesla, now that's a status symbol.
>
> "as long as the hybrid remains a symbol of a driver’s commitment to the environment, especially among the nation’s wealthiest, the future of the Prius should be secure."
>
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/eco-nomics/2012/08/09/is-the-toyota-prius-the-latest-status-symbol-of-the-wealthy/
>
>
> The Prius isn't very green, either:
>
> "When you factor in all the energy it takes to drive and build a Prius it takes almost 50% more energy than a Hummer. In a study by CNW Marketing called "Dust to Dust", researchers discovered that the Prius costs and average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles (the expected lifespan of a hybrid). On the other hand the Hummer costs $1.95 per mile over an expected 300,000 miles. Which means that the Hummer will last three times as long and use less energy than the Prius."
>
> http://www.thetorquereport.com/2007/03/toyotas_prius_is_less_efficien.html
>
>
> It's not easy being green :-)

If we've learned anything at the shop it's that people can't be bothered with the facts. They seriously don't care if you have studies backing up the environmental damage, they believe they are green and will take those beliefs to their graves. Ideology is funny that way. :-)

-- 
Adam Wilson
IRC: LightBender
Project Coordinator
The Horizon Project
http://www.thehorizonproject.org/

On 8/1/13 12:05 PM, Adam Wilson wrote:
> If we've learned anything at the shop it's that people can't be bothered
> with the facts. They seriously don't care if you have studies backing up
> the environmental damage, they believe they are green and will take
> those beliefs to their graves. Ideology is funny that way. :-)

You betcha. Related, you destroyed the myth that engine braking is any bad, but I bet money nobody changed opinions.

About green driving, Prius, and Tesla - it's all about what industry you want to sustain. Everything that stands behind the Hummer as a road car is an abomination, pure and simple. Of course I'd agree plenty of Prius drivers are as snooty as it gets in a different way. Yet the reality remains that the Hummer is an evolutionary dead end, and hybrids are a stepping stone to a better future.

My current car is a nice and economic Honda Fit. It is the very last internal combustion engine I'll ever own - I hope my next car will be a Tesla (regardless of what anyone thinks about it being a status symbol). Buying a dinosaur juice-based engine at this point is as much fail as buying a carriage with horses in 1915. I predict that internal combustion engines will be seen in less than a hundred years as weird inefficient contraptions, like we think of steam engines today.

Also, there is a beauty about electrical engines - their theoretical efficiency is 100%, they are simple, principled, entropy-neutral, and work on conservative laws. (Batteries are more unwieldy though.)


Andrei

On 8/1/2013 12:39 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> You betcha. Related, you destroyed the myth that engine braking is any bad, but
> I bet money nobody changed opinions.

For an engine designed for it, sure. For an engine not designed for it, no. A carbureted engine is still going to have the unburned gas problem (and you're not going to be very green pumping out semi-burned hydrocarbons out the tailpipe). I don't know at what point injected systems began shutting off the fuel when backdriving.

> Also, there is a beauty about electrical engines - their theoretical efficiency
> is 100%, they are simple, principled, entropy-neutral, and work on conservative
> laws. (Batteries are more unwieldy though.)

You're right, it's all about the batteries. They're a gigantic problem that, while there are incremental improvements, is still far from a solution. But gasoline engines are also getting incremental improvements. Modern ones are way, way better than the ones from the 60's in just about every aspect.

There's an inherent efficiency in gas cars in that the energy is generated on site. For electric cars, the energy is generated elsewhere (at the power plant), and then you're faced with all the losses from transmitting the energy, storing it, and recovering it. It's a tough hill to climb. Gasoline is pretty remarkable in its energy density and portability.

BTW, with a manual trans, you can get quite a bit better mileage than the EPA ratings. Google "hypermiling" for ways. I do that stuff routinely.

On 8/1/2013 12:39 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> (regardless of what anyone thinks about it being a status symbol).

Nobody admits that they select a car based on its status signals, even the people who pick anti-status symbols, as that's its own status signal!

Reminds me of that old Dr. Pepper commercial: "Join the non-conformists!"

On Thursday, 1 August 2013 at 19:40:36 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu
wrote:
clip

> My current car is a nice and economic Honda Fit. It is the very last internal combustion engine I'll ever own - I hope my next car will be a Tesla (regardless of what anyone thinks about it being a status symbol). Buying a dinosaur juice-based engine at this point is as much fail as buying a carriage with horses in 1915. I predict that internal combustion engines will be seen in less than a hundred years as weird inefficient contraptions, like we think of steam engines today.
>
clip

If you really want to go green, you should get an electric bike
and ride that :o) Then no one can accuse you of buying it as a
status symbol, but of course you will likely be killed by one of
the Hummer drivers.

Craig

On Thu, 01 Aug 2013 13:17:51 -0700, Walter Bright <newshound2@digitalmars.com> wrote:

> On 8/1/2013 12:39 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>> You betcha. Related, you destroyed the myth that engine braking is any bad, but
>> I bet money nobody changed opinions.
>
> For an engine designed for it, sure. For an engine not designed for it, no. A carbureted engine is still going to have the unburned gas problem (and you're not going to be very green pumping out semi-burned hydrocarbons out the tailpipe). I don't know at what point injected systems began shutting off the fuel when backdriving.
>

I think most manufacturers made that change in the early 80's with all the EPA mandates. So basically anything still on the road that isn't a Classic. :-)

>> Also, there is a beauty about electrical engines - their theoretical efficiency
>> is 100%, they are simple, principled, entropy-neutral, and work on conservative
>> laws. (Batteries are more unwieldy though.)
>
> You're right, it's all about the batteries. They're a gigantic problem that, while there are incremental improvements, is still far from a solution. But gasoline engines are also getting incremental improvements. Modern ones are way, way better than the ones from the 60's in just about every aspect.
>

And getting better every year. We're starting to see widespread use of Gasoline Direct Injection and better ignition technologies. The reason we aren't seeing major improvement in gas mileage is because every year new government safety mandates add an average of 30lbs to the car.

> There's an inherent efficiency in gas cars in that the energy is generated on site. For electric cars, the energy is generated elsewhere (at the power plant), and then you're faced with all the losses from transmitting the energy, storing it, and recovering it. It's a tough hill to climb. Gasoline is pretty remarkable in its energy density and portability.
>

In fact, in raw terms, Gasoline has significantly higher energy density than batteries. And that matters more than you'd think. The Prius for example weighs something like 2900lbs where the typical gasoline powered car of the same size weighs around 2000lbs. This is due to the need for a large array of batteries and carrying around both a gasoline motor and electrical motors. That has a direct effect on the amount of energy required to move it's mass. So per pound, Gasoline has Batteries thoroughly beaten, and according to a friend of mine who works in the field (he designs the inverters that convert battery energy to energy usable by things like automotive electric motors) this will remain so for the foreseeable future. (AKA, nothing groundbreaking on the horizon.)

> BTW, with a manual trans, you can get quite a bit better mileage than the EPA ratings. Google "hypermiling" for ways. I do that stuff routinely.
>

You did forget to mention that you piss off everyone behind though... ;-P

-- 
Adam Wilson
IRC: LightBender
Project Coordinator
The Horizon Project
http://www.thehorizonproject.org/

On 8/1/2013 1:53 PM, Adam Wilson wrote:
> You did forget to mention that you piss off everyone behind though... ;-P

I do pay attention to what's behind me when doing it. I'll hypermile much more aggressively when there's nobody behind me.