On Tuesday, 16 May 2017 at 23:17:10 UTC, Mike B Johnson wrote:
>
> Grow up!!!!!
>
> ! is not yelling. It makes no sound, has no meaning, and only exists to insert in to tight anuses that have no life.

Thank you for your helpful comment.

I wonder if the inability for D community to grow is not more related to the fairly noticeable arrogant attitude of its members.

One only need to read past messages on this forum to see the exact same issue over and over again. People mention issues and the standard response: "Why do you not do x" or act with a sense of superiority.

Maybe too many people have been D member too long but its obvious that there are too many steps for new users to use D, unlike with other new languages.

D as a language is fairly feature complete. But everything around it just screams "skipped leg day".

Lets see with other languages?

Go: Full working IDEs where things just work out of the box.

** IntelliJ: You can simply get Gogland and it works great.
** VSC: vscode-go work perfectly.

Rust:

** IntelliJ: intellij-rust plugin works great, few steps required.
** VSC: vscode-rust ...

I am using these languages because they are young languages. Despite that they outrun D on several fronts.

It takes me 10 minutes in other languages to get a full working IDE with lots of Editor/IDE choices. It takes time, hours of reading, compiling, configuring to try and get a full working IDE on D. And no, color syntax does not count.

I do not want to disparage the D plugin authors but one only needs to see the update history of all the D, Go, Rust, ... plugins to see the difference in activity. There is a lack of passion. Maybe its just my impression but this language seems to be support really by maybe a dozen people at best. What happens if Walter and Andrei call it quits? Or god forbids anything happens to them.


I do not know about you but posting a point of criticism in the other communities does not result in such drama. Maybe people have gotten too sensitive and desperate for protecting the language that criticism is considered bad.

But you think that responses like "if you would have took the time to report it!". No ... when i report issues in the other languages, nobody acts like that. Even if it was a misunderstanding, i notice people jumping on each other here WAY too much in previous posts.

Let me mention how a few other languages do things:

Predictable release schedules: Rust every 6 weeks a release. Go six month release a release. D? Whenever?

Plugin support: Well, see above. Even the Google able Editor/IDE wiki page is out of date ( https://wiki.dlang.org/IDEs, https://wiki.dlang.org/Editors ). From my understanding there are about 4 or 5 plugin/editors that have some life in them. All the rest seems abandoned. Inviting is it not?

Community: Outside this forum almost non existing unless you consider reddit/programming. Where other languages have active communities outside there main side / forum.

Proposals: DIP how many gave gotten accepted, that are NOT part of the main developers like Walter and Andrei. Most seem to turn into a slugfests for ages and they slowly die. Other languages seems to have a much more inviting attitude towards proposals.

Tooling: Split, manual compile jobs, not part of the main installation.

dmd, rdmd why do they even exist in this wat? rdmd needs to be default. Nothing more fun as trying to get a module to run, getting a cryptic message only to find out you need to use rdmd or use dmd with flags link to it. What are we 1980's?

Even the default dmd info is too much. User friendly it is not. The advanced information needs to be behind a flag, not dumped onto a user his screen.

It feels like C++ software from the 80s that assumes that ever user can spend a few hours reading / understanding each flag.


How about focusing on one compiler instead of splitting your community in three. Its a wast of resources. There is a clear lack of people to support the language and this attitude of running people off. Great idea <sarcasm>.


Its no wonder that Go, Rust simply jumped over D. Its not about corporate backers, its about how the community is build up.


I can go on but it feels like trowing words at a wall. There are a LOT of issues that are obvious for any outsider to see after a short amount of time.


Deal with these comments how you like. Maybe you think i am trolling but that make me the most stupid Troll to wast so much time writing this.

Frankly, i like the D language but there is a instant dislike to this community. Like most people i do not have the time to deal with drama. This is my last attempt at going with D. Good day to you Sir!

I do not see any problem with D community. It is one of the best community I known btw. I would like to have better IDE support for D too, but this is something I do not see comming until Jetbrains make it for us (and I do not see why would they  do this until D is much more popular)

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 10:19 AM, Benro via Digitalmars-d < digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, 16 May 2017 at 23:17:10 UTC, Mike B Johnson wrote:
>
>>
>> Grow up!!!!!
>>
>> ! is not yelling. It makes no sound, has no meaning, and only exists to insert in to tight anuses that have no life.
>>
>
> Thank you for your helpful comment.
>
> I wonder if the inability for D community to grow is not more related to the fairly noticeable arrogant attitude of its members.
>
> One only need to read past messages on this forum to see the exact same issue over and over again. People mention issues and the standard response: "Why do you not do x" or act with a sense of superiority.
>
> Maybe too many people have been D member too long but its obvious that there are too many steps for new users to use D, unlike with other new languages.
>
> D as a language is fairly feature complete. But everything around it just screams "skipped leg day".
>
> Lets see with other languages?
>
> Go: Full working IDEs where things just work out of the box.
>
> ** IntelliJ: You can simply get Gogland and it works great. ** VSC: vscode-go work perfectly.
>
> Rust:
>
> ** IntelliJ: intellij-rust plugin works great, few steps required. ** VSC: vscode-rust ...
>
> I am using these languages because they are young languages. Despite that they outrun D on several fronts.
>
> It takes me 10 minutes in other languages to get a full working IDE with lots of Editor/IDE choices. It takes time, hours of reading, compiling, configuring to try and get a full working IDE on D. And no, color syntax does not count.
>
> I do not want to disparage the D plugin authors but one only needs to see the update history of all the D, Go, Rust, ... plugins to see the difference in activity. There is a lack of passion. Maybe its just my impression but this language seems to be support really by maybe a dozen people at best. What happens if Walter and Andrei call it quits? Or god forbids anything happens to them.
>
>
> I do not know about you but posting a point of criticism in the other communities does not result in such drama. Maybe people have gotten too sensitive and desperate for protecting the language that criticism is considered bad.
>
> But you think that responses like "if you would have took the time to report it!". No ... when i report issues in the other languages, nobody acts like that. Even if it was a misunderstanding, i notice people jumping on each other here WAY too much in previous posts.
>
> Let me mention how a few other languages do things:
>
> Predictable release schedules: Rust every 6 weeks a release. Go six month release a release. D? Whenever?
>
> Plugin support: Well, see above. Even the Google able Editor/IDE wiki page is out of date ( https://wiki.dlang.org/IDEs, https://wiki.dlang.org/Editors ). From my understanding there are about 4 or 5 plugin/editors that have some life in them. All the rest seems abandoned. Inviting is it not?
>
> Community: Outside this forum almost non existing unless you consider reddit/programming. Where other languages have active communities outside there main side / forum.
>
> Proposals: DIP how many gave gotten accepted, that are NOT part of the main developers like Walter and Andrei. Most seem to turn into a slugfests for ages and they slowly die. Other languages seems to have a much more inviting attitude towards proposals.
>
> Tooling: Split, manual compile jobs, not part of the main installation.
>
> dmd, rdmd why do they even exist in this wat? rdmd needs to be default. Nothing more fun as trying to get a module to run, getting a cryptic message only to find out you need to use rdmd or use dmd with flags link to it. What are we 1980's?
>
> Even the default dmd info is too much. User friendly it is not. The advanced information needs to be behind a flag, not dumped onto a user his screen.
>
> It feels like C++ software from the 80s that assumes that ever user can spend a few hours reading / understanding each flag.
>
>
> How about focusing on one compiler instead of splitting your community in three. Its a wast of resources. There is a clear lack of people to support the language and this attitude of running people off. Great idea <sarcasm>.
>
>
> Its no wonder that Go, Rust simply jumped over D. Its not about corporate backers, its about how the community is build up.
>
>
> I can go on but it feels like trowing words at a wall. There are a LOT of issues that are obvious for any outsider to see after a short amount of time.
>
>
> Deal with these comments how you like. Maybe you think i am trolling but that make me the most stupid Troll to wast so much time writing this.
>
> Frankly, i like the D language but there is a instant dislike to this community. Like most people i do not have the time to deal with drama. This is my last attempt at going with D. Good day to you Sir!
>

Btw, I have no issue with code-d on linux, but on windows why havent you try visuald ide? I belive it is one of the best D ide on windows right now and if I remember correctly it is part of standard D installer

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Daniel Kozak <kozzi11@gmail.com> wrote:

> I do not see any problem with D community. It is one of the best community I known btw. I would like to have better IDE support for D too, but this is something I do not see comming until Jetbrains make it for us (and I do not see why would they  do this until D is much more popular)
>
> On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 10:19 AM, Benro via Digitalmars-d < digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, 16 May 2017 at 23:17:10 UTC, Mike B Johnson wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Grow up!!!!!
>>>
>>> ! is not yelling. It makes no sound, has no meaning, and only exists to insert in to tight anuses that have no life.
>>>
>>
>> Thank you for your helpful comment.
>>
>> I wonder if the inability for D community to grow is not more related to the fairly noticeable arrogant attitude of its members.
>>
>> One only need to read past messages on this forum to see the exact same issue over and over again. People mention issues and the standard response: "Why do you not do x" or act with a sense of superiority.
>>
>> Maybe too many people have been D member too long but its obvious that there are too many steps for new users to use D, unlike with other new languages.
>>
>> D as a language is fairly feature complete. But everything around it just screams "skipped leg day".
>>
>> Lets see with other languages?
>>
>> Go: Full working IDEs where things just work out of the box.
>>
>> ** IntelliJ: You can simply get Gogland and it works great. ** VSC: vscode-go work perfectly.
>>
>> Rust:
>>
>> ** IntelliJ: intellij-rust plugin works great, few steps required. ** VSC: vscode-rust ...
>>
>> I am using these languages because they are young languages. Despite that they outrun D on several fronts.
>>
>> It takes me 10 minutes in other languages to get a full working IDE with lots of Editor/IDE choices. It takes time, hours of reading, compiling, configuring to try and get a full working IDE on D. And no, color syntax does not count.
>>
>> I do not want to disparage the D plugin authors but one only needs to see the update history of all the D, Go, Rust, ... plugins to see the difference in activity. There is a lack of passion. Maybe its just my impression but this language seems to be support really by maybe a dozen people at best. What happens if Walter and Andrei call it quits? Or god forbids anything happens to them.
>>
>>
>> I do not know about you but posting a point of criticism in the other communities does not result in such drama. Maybe people have gotten too sensitive and desperate for protecting the language that criticism is considered bad.
>>
>> But you think that responses like "if you would have took the time to report it!". No ... when i report issues in the other languages, nobody acts like that. Even if it was a misunderstanding, i notice people jumping on each other here WAY too much in previous posts.
>>
>> Let me mention how a few other languages do things:
>>
>> Predictable release schedules: Rust every 6 weeks a release. Go six month release a release. D? Whenever?
>>
>> Plugin support: Well, see above. Even the Google able Editor/IDE wiki page is out of date ( https://wiki.dlang.org/IDEs, https://wiki.dlang.org/Editors ). From my understanding there are about 4 or 5 plugin/editors that have some life in them. All the rest seems abandoned. Inviting is it not?
>>
>> Community: Outside this forum almost non existing unless you consider reddit/programming. Where other languages have active communities outside there main side / forum.
>>
>> Proposals: DIP how many gave gotten accepted, that are NOT part of the main developers like Walter and Andrei. Most seem to turn into a slugfests for ages and they slowly die. Other languages seems to have a much more inviting attitude towards proposals.
>>
>> Tooling: Split, manual compile jobs, not part of the main installation.
>>
>> dmd, rdmd why do they even exist in this wat? rdmd needs to be default. Nothing more fun as trying to get a module to run, getting a cryptic message only to find out you need to use rdmd or use dmd with flags link to it. What are we 1980's?
>>
>> Even the default dmd info is too much. User friendly it is not. The advanced information needs to be behind a flag, not dumped onto a user his screen.
>>
>> It feels like C++ software from the 80s that assumes that ever user can spend a few hours reading / understanding each flag.
>>
>>
>> How about focusing on one compiler instead of splitting your community in three. Its a wast of resources. There is a clear lack of people to support the language and this attitude of running people off. Great idea <sarcasm>.
>>
>>
>> Its no wonder that Go, Rust simply jumped over D. Its not about corporate backers, its about how the community is build up.
>>
>>
>> I can go on but it feels like trowing words at a wall. There are a LOT of issues that are obvious for any outsider to see after a short amount of time.
>>
>>
>> Deal with these comments how you like. Maybe you think i am trolling but that make me the most stupid Troll to wast so much time writing this.
>>
>> Frankly, i like the D language but there is a instant dislike to this community. Like most people i do not have the time to deal with drama. This is my last attempt at going with D. Good day to you Sir!
>>
>
>

On Wednesday, 17 May 2017 at 08:27:50 UTC, Daniel Kozak wrote:
> I do not see any problem with D community.

Wow!

On Wednesday, 17 May 2017 at 08:19:43 UTC, Benro wrote:
> On Tuesday, 16 May 2017 at 23:17:10 UTC, Mike B Johnson wrote:
>>
>> Grow up!!!!!
>>
>> ! is not yelling. It makes no sound, has no meaning, and only exists to insert in to tight anuses that have no life.
>
> Thank you for your helpful comment.
>
> I wonder if the inability for D community to grow is not more related to the fairly noticeable arrogant attitude of its members.
>
> One only need to read past messages on this forum to see the exact same issue over and over again. People mention issues and the standard response: "Why do you not do x" or act with a sense of superiority.
>
> Maybe too many people have been D member too long but its obvious that there are too many steps for new users to use D, unlike with other new languages.
>
> D as a language is fairly feature complete. But everything around it just screams "skipped leg day".
>
> Lets see with other languages?
>
> Go: Full working IDEs where things just work out of the box.
>
> ** IntelliJ: You can simply get Gogland and it works great.
> ** VSC: vscode-go work perfectly.
>
> Rust:
>
> ** IntelliJ: intellij-rust plugin works great, few steps required.
> ** VSC: vscode-rust ...
>
> I am using these languages because they are young languages. Despite that they outrun D on several fronts.
>
> It takes me 10 minutes in other languages to get a full working IDE with lots of Editor/IDE choices. It takes time, hours of reading, compiling, configuring to try and get a full working IDE on D. And no, color syntax does not count.
>
> I do not want to disparage the D plugin authors but one only needs to see the update history of all the D, Go, Rust, ... plugins to see the difference in activity. There is a lack of passion. Maybe its just my impression but this language seems to be support really by maybe a dozen people at best. What happens if Walter and Andrei call it quits? Or god forbids anything happens to them.
>
>
> I do not know about you but posting a point of criticism in the other communities does not result in such drama. Maybe people have gotten too sensitive and desperate for protecting the language that criticism is considered bad.
>
> But you think that responses like "if you would have took the time to report it!". No ... when i report issues in the other languages, nobody acts like that. Even if it was a misunderstanding, i notice people jumping on each other here WAY too much in previous posts.
>
> Let me mention how a few other languages do things:
>
> Predictable release schedules: Rust every 6 weeks a release. Go six month release a release. D? Whenever?

D release cycle is not so bad. I also program in Object Pascal: FPC has one release every 2 years...There's better, there's worst. The schedule is sometimes broken but it's because of the dot releases which fix regressions. At least they are handled and not ignored just to respect a release date.

> Plugin support: Well, see above. Even the Google able Editor/IDE wiki page is out of date ( https://wiki.dlang.org/IDEs, https://wiki.dlang.org/Editors ). From my understanding there are about 4 or 5 plugin/editors that have some life in them. All the rest seems abandoned. Inviting is it not?
>
> Community: Outside this forum almost non existing unless you consider reddit/programming. Where other languages have active communities outside there main side / forum.

You're welcome in D IRC channel. It's very active, very friendly, less formal than the forum, more immediate. There are channels with way more users but almost no public conversations.

> Proposals: DIP how many gave gotten accepted, that are NOT part of the main developers like Walter and Andrei. Most seem to turn into a slugfests for ages and they slowly die. Other languages seems to have a much more inviting attitude towards proposals.
>
> Tooling: Split, manual compile jobs, not part of the main installation.
>
> dmd, rdmd why do they even exist in this wat? rdmd needs to be default. Nothing more fun as trying to get a module to run, getting a cryptic message only to find out you need to use rdmd or use dmd with flags link to it. What are we 1980's?
>
> Even the default dmd info is too much. User friendly it is not. The advanced information needs to be behind a flag, not dumped onto a user his screen.
>
> It feels like C++ software from the 80s that assumes that ever user can spend a few hours reading / understanding each flag.
>
>
> How about focusing on one compiler instead of splitting your community in three. Its a wast of resources. There is a clear lack of people to support the language and this attitude of running people off. Great idea <sarcasm>.
>

The 3 compilers use the same front-end. Lexing, parsing, semantic are common.

> Its no wonder that Go, Rust simply jumped over D. Its not about corporate backers, its about how the community is build up.
>
>
> I can go on but it feels like trowing words at a wall. There are a LOT of issues that are obvious for any outsider to see after a short amount of time.
>
>
> Deal with these comments how you like. Maybe you think i am trolling but that make me the most stupid Troll to wast so much time writing this.
>
> Frankly, i like the D language but there is a instant dislike to this community. Like most people i do not have the time to deal with drama. This is my last attempt at going with D. Good day to you Sir!

While being angry remove the barrier of the politeness and allows a certain frankness, you should calm down. After all it's only about a misunderstanding initiated by an exclamation mark. Well, i think this thread is dead but don't give up for all that, these kind of conversation happen several times per year, it's not that a problem for me...life is so.

On 5/17/17 4:19 AM, Benro wrote:
> I wonder if the inability for D community to grow is not more related to the fairly noticeable arrogant attitude of its members.
> 
> One only need to read past messages on this forum to see the exact same issue over and over again. People mention issues and the standard response: "Why do you not do x" or act with a sense of superiority.

Thanks for your comments. I agree we should improve the tone in our community. I have also gotten much feedback recently about the first five minutes experience, even before getting to hefty propositions like authoring an IDE (or plugin). There will be changes in that area coming soon. All points are well taken. Thanks! -- Andrei

On Wednesday, 17 May 2017 at 10:48:40 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> On 5/17/17 4:19 AM, Benro wrote:
>> I wonder if the inability for D community to grow is not more related to the fairly noticeable arrogant attitude of its members.
>> 
>> One only need to read past messages on this forum to see the exact same issue over and over again. People mention issues and the standard response: "Why do you not do x" or act with a sense of superiority.
>
> Thanks for your comments. I agree we should improve the tone in our community. I have also gotten much feedback recently about the first five minutes experience, even before getting to hefty propositions like authoring an IDE (or plugin). There will be changes in that area coming soon. All points are well taken. Thanks! -- Andrei

Well, I recently tried to get C++ working on windows (Trying to learn it too along with D).

I can say that unless you use Visual Studio, it is a real pain to make any other environment working on it. I can't understand _why_ there are different implementations of the C++ standard library and they are not compatible with every compiler. It's like if LDC, GDC and DMD had their own standard library and "peace out".

It was really a terrible experience. Thankfully, D is really much simpler to get working (if we don't use Visual Studio).

On Wednesday, 17 May 2017 at 11:08:00 UTC, ezneh wrote:
> On Wednesday, 17 May 2017 at 10:48:40 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>> [...]
>
> Well, I recently tried to get C++ working on windows (Trying to learn it too along with D).
>
> I can say that unless you use Visual Studio, it is a real pain to make any other environment working on it. I can't understand _why_ there are different implementations of the C++ standard library and they are not compatible with every compiler. It's like if LDC, GDC and DMD had their own standard library and "peace out".
>
> It was really a terrible experience. Thankfully, D is really much simpler to get working (if we don't use Visual Studio).

Windows without visual studio generally suck

On Wednesday, 17 May 2017 at 11:08:00 UTC, ezneh wrote:
> On Wednesday, 17 May 2017 at 10:48:40 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>> On 5/17/17 4:19 AM, Benro wrote:
>>> I wonder if the inability for D community to grow is not more related to the fairly noticeable arrogant attitude of its members.
>>> 
>>> One only need to read past messages on this forum to see the exact same issue over and over again. People mention issues and the standard response: "Why do you not do x" or act with a sense of superiority.
>>
>> Thanks for your comments. I agree we should improve the tone in our community. I have also gotten much feedback recently about the first five minutes experience, even before getting to hefty propositions like authoring an IDE (or plugin). There will be changes in that area coming soon. All points are well taken. Thanks! -- Andrei
>
> Well, I recently tried to get C++ working on windows (Trying to learn it too along with D).
>
> I can say that unless you use Visual Studio, it is a real pain to make any other environment working on it. I can't understand _why_ there are different implementations of the C++ standard library and they are not compatible with every compiler. It's like if LDC, GDC and DMD had their own standard library and "peace out".
>
> It was really a terrible experience. Thankfully, D is really much simpler to get working (if we don't use Visual Studio).

I use D with the Vim plugin, Dutyl. The installation of dependences is somewhat manual but once it installed it works perfectly well. Compared with the Go plugin the only thing that I miss is auto downloading of dependences; maybe I'll try to make a PR tonight.

The original poster attitude to the exclamation sounds incredibly disproportionate. Replies were friendly until that point. As another newcomer newcomer, sounds like another Rust user extending the Crusade, but maybe is just me.

On 05/16/2017 10:51 AM, Benro wrote:
> A quick summary trying to get D and a some IDEs running on a Windows
> environment.
>

Full-on IDEs always make simple things complicated. If you're on Windows, I highly recommend Programmer's Notepad 2. Works great with D out-of-the-box (as well as gobs of other languages), is lightning-quick and responsive, and highly configurable.

Sublime Text is equally good, if you don't mind a non-native UI.

If you're ever checking it out on Linux, KDevelop is pretty decent. Heck, even Kate has built-in D support.