On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 03:07:59 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:
>
> For the record, I've never indicated here whether I was excited about IVY or not.
>
> Ali

It's easier for some, more than others, to fixate on a powerful image of an ideal self.

It may be, that your brain is not wired in such a way, that it makes it easy for you to fixate on yourself.

That's not necessarily a bad thing ;-)

My hapiness and motivation has certainly *not* come from fixating on an ideal image of myself. Nor do I want a fixation on myself to be the motivating force in my life.

Any focus on myself, has typically always been due to a necessity (to focus on myself) - ie. Because of the need to eat, sleep, earn money, have somewhere to live, etc.....). I'm not sure the 'self' deserves much more attention than that.

In any case, be warned : Once you get those connections activating in your left prefrontal cortex.. you're going to be stuck with them.

On 5/15/23 22:58, WilliamJames wrote:
> On Tuesday, 16 May 2023 at 04:35:51 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:
>>
>> ...
>> However, self is the only entity that produces motivation and motivation gets things done. That's how I related to IVY.
>>
> 
> The motivations of the delusional self can often lead to suffering.
> 
> https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2016.00124/full
> 

I finally read that paper. Was that a joke?

The paper is full of unsubstantiated beliefs of an author with a strong self.

The author claims self is a result of western individualism and proposes unself. That is false because in fact, self is natural. The seeking of unself is unnatural as seen by the extent of "giving up desires, displaying compassion, practicing meditation and seeking understanding Buddhist wisdom."

(Aside: I resent the implication that people with self don't have compassion. We do have.)

As a person who does not have nonself, I am disturbed by the premise of this sentence: "Egoism is inclined to increased extent to which the individual considers that his or her own condition is more important than that of others and takes unquestioned priority." How strong the author's self must have been that he puts himself over others and claims with certainty that I have "unquestionable priority" over others. Popycock! That sentence there is contradiction enough to dismiss this non-science paper.

Perhaps unself is an attempt at escape for people who have strong selves. They must assume the rest of us have strong selves as well. But I don't. For example, I have discovered "I don't exist" on my own when I was a teenager. No meditation was involved.

The author assumes "[...] death anxiety and moral conduct." Where does that come from? Only children are anxious about death. (Aside: Please learn to use the Oxford comma. I don't think the author meant eliminating "moral conduct".)

"In Buddhism, as long as we have the self, we will be egoistic." Popycock! It is the same thing that some religions attempt to make people believe to give what you already have: "kindness, compassion, goodness, etc.".

My self rejects that paper.

I strongly recommend for you and others to embrace the scientific method and reject non-peer-reviewed works that are presented as such. Such "papers" are full of references to similar other papers. In fact, you can write one yourunself now.

It also says "The author declares that the research was conducted [...]". But the paper conflicts with itunself because actually there was no research: "This paper is the first to postulate an academically respectable theory". See? No research. It was just thinking.

What a waste of time that was! But at least it was mildly entertaining.

Ali

On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 09:24:57 UTC, Theo wrote:
> Personally, I've always preferred the Nike theory: Just do it!
>
> If we want to see progress, like you suggest, then the Nike theory is worth a try ;-)

What is the nike? Shoes Brand 😀

The most basic philosophy of Mevlana Celaleddin Rumi's path is humanism.  He argues that worldly life is temporary and that materialism in mortal life is not the most harmful surety in human thought.  According to Mevlana's views, the most important thing is 'being human' and 'acting humanely' throughout life.  He writes with words and various stories that loving people living in his works is the same as loving the whole universe and loving God.  The most important thing for Mevlana is the greeting.

Regardless of which religion the person believes in or even believes in the Creator, he says, "Come, whatever you are, come again."  He is the person of his time, today and tomorrow with his scientific knowledge, perspective on the universe and human beings, morality, tolerance and attitude.

SDB@79

On Friday, 19 May 2023 at 07:07:19 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:
>
> ..
> What a waste of time that was! But at least it was mildly entertaining.
>
> Ali

The only point for my referencing that theory, was in the relation to the promotion of IVY in this forum (and apparently at the next Dconf too). I simply wanted to demonstrate that people may have other 'beliefs' when it comes to the concept of self, the importance of the self, and the manner of cultivating, or not, that self.

I should also point out, that it was a 'HYPOTHESIS AND THEORY article', supported by a research grant received from the Ministry of Science and Technology, Taiwan, and published in a peer-reviewed journal 'Frontiers in Psychology', which is the most respected and most cited journal in its field!

That does not mean you should accept it. That is why its referred to in the journal, as a 'HYPOTHESIS AND THEORY article', and part of a broader set of articles exploring Eastern Philosophies and Psychology. One does not accept these things, just because they appear in a journal, no matter how well respected that journal is. That my friend, is what science is for!

But again, the only point for my presenting it, was to demonstrate that not everyone will support the IVY theory (either). It's presented as an organisational development, and so its actual agenda is hidden behind that, and you need to go look for it. I'm not inferring anything by saying that, but Saeed Sabeti is also the founder of another organisation. I expect the same motivations are being driven here as well (again, I'm certainly not inferring anything here, just saying that people should be aware of the philosophy that is behind these ideas, so they can make their own judgements as to whether it aligns with their 'self' concept.

The other reason I was motivated to raise this article in this forum, was because I studied and wrote about this very topic, extensively, during by Bachelor Degree in Psychological Science (at one of the most respected Universities in this country).

From my perspective, IVY has no place in this forum or at DConf, anymore that Buddhism would. What people do to motivate themselves, is up to them. Please keep it that way. I don't want people preaching to me on this, or any other matter. I just want a programming language that I feel excited about when I use it. That is what this forum should be about, and what Dconf should be about.

On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 03:18:09 UTC, Salih Dincer wrote:
> On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 09:24:57 UTC, Theo wrote:
>> Personally, I've always preferred the Nike theory: Just do it!
>>
>> If we want to see progress, like you suggest, then the Nike theory is worth a try ;-)
>
> What is the nike? Shoes Brand 😀
>

Yes ;-)

I think it's the best advertising pitch ever!

It the *universal* principle of how to actually get things done.

Whenever I don't feel motivate to do something, this always comes to mind, and I end up 'just doing it'. Then it gets done, and funny enough, motivation never played a role in getting it done.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_Do_It

On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 03:18:09 UTC, Salih Dincer wrote:
> On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 09:24:57 UTC, Theo wrote:
>> Personally, I've always preferred the Nike theory: Just do it!
>>
>> If we want to see progress, like you suggest, then the Nike theory is worth a try ;-)
>
> What is the nike? Shoes Brand 😀
>

Likely it's Nick Treleaven.

On Friday, 19 May 2023 at 07:07:19 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:
>
> The paper is full of unsubstantiated beliefs of an author with a strong self.
>
> The author claims self is a result of western individualism and

At no point, is this article about the author, of his beliefs, or otherwise.

If it had been, it would have NEVER been published in such a prestigous journal.

Please don't mispresent what you clearly do not understand.

If you won't to focus on personal beliefs, I refer you to:

https://www.altereducation.org/

(an organistaion founded by the very same person promoting IVY).

I do NOT imply there is anything wrong with what he is promoting. I'm simply pointing out, that he is being driven by his personal beliefs, and other should be allowed to the same thing. But none of these should have any role in the D forums, nor at Dconf. That really, is my point.

On 5/19/23 21:16, Theo wrote:

> I studied and wrote about this very topic, extensively, [...]

That doesn't mean you should accept it. Critical mind is a part of science as well.

For me, one of the most important signals is contradiction: No person who claims to have a scientific mind should be blind to it. No matter what the motivations of authors, journals, readers, and universities may be. Contradiction is a fundamental signal that will guide you the right direction.

> I don't want people preaching to me on this, or any other matter.

Nobody did that. There was just an announcement about an organizational method.

I know I shouldn't preach about the futility of hurting people under infinite pseudonyms just to get class private in the language. You need strong support for such a weak feature, which will never come from trolling. You pull me into an off-topic hypothesis just to get class private? Good luck to you with that and I go to my Thunderbird settings.

Ali

On 5/19/23 21:38, Theo wrote:

> Please don't mispresent what you clearly do not understand.

I know I understand.

> If you won't to focus on personal beliefs, I refer you to:
>
> https://www.altereducation.org/
>
> (an organistaion founded by the very same person promoting IVY).

And your point is?

> I do NOT imply there is anything wrong with what he is promoting.

Ah! But you still bring it up. Hm? I wonder why?

> I'm
> simply pointing out, that he is being driven by his personal beliefs,
> and other should be allowed to the same thing. But none of these should
> have any role in the D forums, nor at Dconf. That really, is my point.

Your want to get class private by trolling.

Ali

On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 04:38:43 UTC, Theo wrote:
>
> If you won't to focus on personal beliefs, I refer you to:
>
> https://www.altereducation.org/
>
> (an organistaion founded by the very same person promoting IVY).

>> we seek to abolish compulsory education.

Based