October 21, 2018 Re: D Binding to GUI libraries [was Interesting Observation from JAXLondon] | ||||
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Posted in reply to Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) | On 2018-10-21 03:25, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) wrote: > What about DWT? It seemed pretty good from what I could tell, though I > still haven't ventured into D GUIs just yet myself. Are there issues > people have with DWT? Or WxD? DWT is currently stuck at SWT version 3.4 and no macOS version is available yet. I'm working on a tool that will automatically port the Java code that will hopefully fix this. -- /Jacob Carlborg |
October 21, 2018 Re: D Binding to GUI libraries | ||||
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Posted in reply to Russel Winder | On 2018-10-21 09:33, Russel Winder wrote: > The SWT framework is being replaced with JavaFX, so should D forget DWT > and do something similar? Where do you get that idea? SWT (and therefore DWT) is using the native drawing operations of the OS. No, D should not forget DWT. It's one of the few (they only?) D GUI toolkit that has a native look and feel. -- /Jacob Carlborg |
October 21, 2018 Re: D Binding to GUI libraries [was Interesting Observation from JAXLondon] | ||||
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Posted in reply to Russel Winder | On 2018-10-20 11:25, Russel Winder wrote: > GtkD works very well for me. But I guess GTK+ has a reputation of not > working on Windows and macOS. Once a reputation is established it is > nigh on impossible to refute. As has been stated elsewhere, it's working on Windows and macOS but looks very alien on macOS. When I was in school I wrote a program using C# (Mono) and GTK on macOS. GTK seemed to be the best alternative (for using with Mono) back then. During the development of that program a beta or alpha version of GTK was released with support for a native main menu on macOS, the rest was non-native. Not sure how it looks like now. -- /Jacob Carlborg |
October 21, 2018 Re: D Binding to GUI libraries [was Interesting Observation from JAXLondon] | ||||
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Posted in reply to Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) | On Sunday, 21 October 2018 at 01:32:22 UTC, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) wrote: > On 10/20/18 6:28 AM, Gregor Mückl wrote: >> >> Even though web and mobile UIs seem to be the rage at the moment, I believe a solid support for desktop UIs is very important for a general purpose language, if it wants to be successful in the market. > > I think that may be doubly true in the case of D, given D's focus on efficiency. HTML-based interfaces (whether web or app) are notoriously rife with inefficiencies: That's likely to be a major turn-off for exactly the very same audiences that D would appeal to most. While talking about bindings, do not forget Delphi. It has still a good eco system. Combining Delphi's advanced Runtime reflection capabilities with D's advanced compile reflection capabilities opens this eco system. I created a proof of concept and the results were really promising. Using Delphi components is very easy and the wrapper code on D side is very thin. Even clicking together a Firemonkey ui in Delphi and writing all code in D works fine. Delphi is available for windows, Mac os, Android and IPhone. Linux support is somehow planned. It is free for personal use. See an example here https://github.com/andre2007/delta-fmx-10-2-1/blob/master/examples/gui1/source/app.d Due to very limited time resources I have no time to work on this specific topic at the moment but everyone is free to use these base research results. Side remark: Lazarus (free pascal) is planning to add the same advanced Runtime reflection capabilities as Delphi. Kind regards Andre |
October 21, 2018 Re: D Binding to GUI libraries [was Interesting Observation from JAXLondon] | ||||
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Posted in reply to Atila Neves | On Saturday, 20 October 2018 at 16:37:07 UTC, Atila Neves wrote:
> I've also realised that there are parts of C++ that are probably unstranslatable no matter what I do.
This can be solved with good gui. It need to look like meld on linux where original cpp and translated d files are side by side and parts of untranslatable code visibly marked so the user can translate it by hand.
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October 21, 2018 Re: D Binding to GUI libraries | ||||
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Posted in reply to Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) Attachments:
| On Sun, 2018-10-21 at 04:15 -0400, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) via Digitalmars-d wrote: > […] > > That's pure nonsense: It's Linux - unless one option actually goes > away > (KDE is still actively used and developed), then there's no such > thing > as one "winning" over the other. Hardly nonsense. Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora all prefer GNOME over KDE, so GTK+ over Qt. > It IS a big problem that far too many people (mainly developers > coming > directly from the Windows world who have decided to half-ass a Linux > port) have decided to erroneously equate "Linux" with "GTK-based DE" > these days, but that's a far cry from saying that GTK/GNOME/Unity > "won > out" over Qt/KDE. People coming from Windows or macOS are genreally unaware of the notion of choice when it comes to UI. That Linux provides a choice is clearly alien to them. That I have chosen GNOME over KDE is a personal choice, but I like having the choice: I like that others can choose KDE or Cinnamon or whatever. […] > Programmers writing GUI apps often like GTK. Nobody else does. From > a > programmer standpoint, it may very well be nice. But that's > irrelevant, > because from the user standpoint, GTK is, and has always been, a > steaming pool of diarrhea, even if you ARE using GNOME/Unity. GTK+ is fine and dandy. That you do not like it is your choice, and that is fine. -- Russel. =========================================== Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 41 Buckmaster Road m: +44 7770 465 077 London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk |
October 21, 2018 Re: D Binding to GUI libraries | ||||
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Posted in reply to Paolo Invernizzi Attachments:
| On Sun, 2018-10-21 at 08:42 +0000, Paolo Invernizzi via Digitalmars-d wrote: > […] > > Linux is not only the desktop, and Qt simply dominates in industrial, medical and automation sector, that's where the money is. > > Qt is pushing strongly on the embedded marked, bare metal or linux (kernel) based... Which means that D not having a good play in the Qt space is a big barrier to adoption. This means it ought to be a strategic goal to have a (and I think I mean one here) D binding to Qt and QML. -- Russel. =========================================== Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 41 Buckmaster Road m: +44 7770 465 077 London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk |
October 21, 2018 Re: D Binding to GUI libraries | ||||
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Posted in reply to Jacob Carlborg Attachments:
| On Sun, 2018-10-21 at 12:49 +0200, Jacob Carlborg via Digitalmars-d wrote: > On 2018-10-21 09:33, Russel Winder wrote: > > > The SWT framework is being replaced with JavaFX, so should D forget > > DWT > > and do something similar? > > Where do you get that idea? SWT (and therefore DWT) is using the > native > drawing operations of the OS. But who apart from Eclipse and JetBrains uses Java for desktop GUI applications? I do not have Eclipse to check, but the JetBrains IDEs (at least CLion, GoLand, IntelliJ IDEA, and PyCharm) ship Swing, SWT, and JavaFX in their systems. Swing, and I believe SWT, have somewhat old architectures for GUI frameworks where GTK+, Qt, and wxWidgets have moved on. But this may just be opinion rather than agreed "fact". > No, D should not forget DWT. It's one of the few (they only?) D GUI toolkit that has a native look and feel. Apart from GtkD on GTK+ systems, and dqml, QtE5, qtD, and dqt on Qt, and wxD on wxWidgets. Qt and wxWidgets pride themselves on being able to use native frameworks underneath – I have no personal evidence as I only use GNOME, I am not a good data point. I do know though that a decade ago I was a fan of wxWidgets exactly because it was a wrapper around native look and feel and better than Qt. GTK+ doesn't really play that game. -- Russel. =========================================== Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 41 Buckmaster Road m: +44 7770 465 077 London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk |
October 21, 2018 Re: D Binding to GUI libraries [was Interesting Observation from JAXLondon] | ||||
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Posted in reply to Jacob Carlborg Attachments:
| On Sun, 2018-10-21 at 12:54 +0200, Jacob Carlborg via Digitalmars-d wrote: > […] > As has been stated elsewhere, it's working on Windows and macOS but > looks very alien on macOS. When I was in school I wrote a program > using > C# (Mono) and GTK on macOS. GTK seemed to be the best alternative > (for > using with Mono) back then. During the development of that program a > beta or alpha version of GTK was released with support for a native > main > menu on macOS, the rest was non-native. Not sure how it looks like > now. I tried GTK+ on OSX (*) a few weeks back using all the stuff from Homebrew. It started an X server, so definitely not native GUI framework. At least not directly. (*) El Capitan. Apple in its infinite wisdom has decided my MBP is too old to have any OS more recent than that. -- Russel. =========================================== Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 41 Buckmaster Road m: +44 7770 465 077 London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk |
October 21, 2018 Re: D Binding to GUI libraries | ||||
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Posted in reply to Russel Winder | On 2018-10-21 19:29, Russel Winder wrote: > But who apart from Eclipse and JetBrains uses Java for desktop GUI > applications? There's probably a ton of business/enterprise applications that are written in Java. But I don't care for that, that's why I'm using D :) > I do not have Eclipse to check, but the JetBrains IDEs > (at least CLion, GoLand, IntelliJ IDEA, and PyCharm) ship Swing, SWT, > and JavaFX in their systems. Not sure what you mean with "ship" here. Swing and JavaFX are shipped with Java. Eclipse itself is built using SWT. > Swing, and I believe SWT, have somewhat old architectures for GUI > frameworks where GTK+, Qt, and wxWidgets have moved on. But this may > just be opinion rather than agreed "fact". I haven't use these other frameworks so I don't know what's consider old architecture and modern architecture. > Apart from GtkD on GTK+ systems Linux doesn't have a "native" GUI in the same sense as macOS and Windows. , and dqml, QtE5, qtD, and dqt on Qt, > and wxD on wxWidgets. Qt and wxWidgets pride themselves on being able > to use native frameworks underneath – I have no personal evidence as I > only use GNOME, I am not a good data point. Qt is not native, at least not on macOS. Are any of the Qt D bindings actually useful? wxD seems very old, D1 old, is that useable? When I said that DWT is basically the only native D toolkit, I failed to also include: up to date (as in working with the latest compiler), working and cross-platform. -- /Jacob Carlborg |
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