On Thu, 05 Aug 2010 13:55:40 -0700, Walter Bright wrote:

> Adam Ruppe wrote:
>> To abandon DMD for that is language suicide.
> 
> Well, one reason (certainly not the only one) I keep with the current dmd back end is that I don't need to spend time convincing some other organization to fix/improve/customize it for better D support. I can just get it done.
> 
> Being in control of the toolchain has a lot of benefits.
> 
> For example, look at gdb, and trying to get it to support D - not for the patches themselves, but getting them accepted into the standard gdb.

Thanks for the clarification.
Imho, doing/checking everything already has taken years and will continue
to take many years. I don't think it's a very viable concept.

On 8/5/10, mwarning <moritzwarning@web.de> wrote:
> Google might help.

I know what it is, but I have /zero/ respect for people who shove their dependencies on me. It shouldn't be my problem.

One of the reasons I went with Digital Mars early on is that DMC just works when you unzip it. DMD continues that tradition, and it is very nice.

I'm spoiled.

Walter Bright wrote:

> Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>>> What's unclear about it?
>> 
>> Basically there's no road map, especially no official. What will happen in one month? Two months? Half a year? The only way to get some idea about what will happen is following the newsgroups and even doing that you don't know what actually will end up in the compiler. You also have to follow the commits to the repository and then it's already too late, it has already happened.
> 
> The roadmap is 64 bit Linux, followed by shared library support under Linux. Concurrently and for the near future, the concentration will be on toolchain and usability issues, not new language features.
> 
> 64 bits on other platforms will follow once it proves out on Linux.

I'm delighted to hear 64bit linux and shared lib.  Very much looking forward to it.  Let me know if I can help test.

On Thu, 05 Aug 2010 19:29:05 -0400, Adam Ruppe wrote:

> On 8/5/10, mwarning <moritzwarning@web.de> wrote:
>> Google might help.
> 
> I know what it is, but I have /zero/ respect for people who shove their dependencies on me. It shouldn't be my problem.
It shouldn't be the problem of the user, I agree.
But that happens and it's definitely not intentional (afaik).
What file have you downloaded? What distribution you use?

> One of the reasons I went with Digital Mars early on is that DMC just works when you unzip it. DMD continues that tradition, and it is very nice.
> 
> I'm spoiled.
Yes you are ;)

Walter Bright, el  5 de agosto a las 13:34 me escribiste:
> mwarning wrote:
> >On Thu, 05 Aug 2010 03:23:25 +0000, BCS wrote:
> >
> >>For a number of IP/legal reasons, Walter CAN'T work on LLVM or LDC.
> >can you please elaborate a bit?
> >I remember that statement has appeared before,
> >but I can't remember the reason that was given.
> 
> Because when I've had the roomful of lawyers do their due diligence on me, saying "I never looked at the source code" is an effective defense against any claims of possible infringement. When I say that, they click their briefcases shut, say "we're done here", and leave.

That seems a little stupid, there are billions of open source projects, and I never hear anyone giving that excuse not to contribute.

Your argument about having to convince people that a feature have merits or the bigger inertia to do changes is a valid one, but that one is just bogus.

And BTW, not all projects have the high inertia DMD have, a lot of projects are much more permeable and more open to external contributions. Obviously there will be always a little more work to coordinate work with others when not all the decisions are made by only you (as is now with the DMD backend), but I don't think it would be that bad either, and the tradeoff of what you gain vs. what you loose will be probably at large in your favor (at least in the long term) if you decided to start using LLVM as the backend. Not that I'm expecting you to do it, I'm just saying :)

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca)                     http://llucax.com.ar/
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El techo de mi cuarto lleno de estrellas

Walter Bright, el  5 de agosto a las 14:42 me escribiste:
> awishformore wrote:
> >>64 bits on other platforms will follow once it proves out on Linux.
> >
> >So the 64bit support you're working on will not be for Windows?
> 
> Not initially. 64 bit C on Windows uses a different ABI, the exception handling support is different, there's no linker (oops), etc. It's a much harder job.

Suddenly LLVM Windows support doesn't seem so bad ;)

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca)                     http://llucax.com.ar/
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GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145  104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
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No debemos temer a la muerte, porque es la mejor recompensa de la vida.
	-- Ren & Stimpy

bioinfornatics, el  5 de agosto a las 22:04 me escribiste:
> is funny because on fedora ldc works fine on 32 and 64 bits. Now is in official
> fedora same as tango.
> And some other project will do soon like:
> - mango
> - derelict
> 
> but yes is a linux system ( sorry )

Same for Debian/Ubuntu. It has limitations (specially on Windows because of LLVM limitations) but is far from unusable.

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca)                     http://llucax.com.ar/
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GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145  104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
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Home, home again.
I like to be here when I can.
When I come home cold and tired
It's good to warm my bones beside the fire.

On Thu, 5 Aug 2010, Leandro Lucarella wrote:

> Walter Bright, el  5 de agosto a las 13:34 me escribiste:
> > Because when I've had the roomful of lawyers do their due diligence on me, saying "I never looked at the source code" is an effective defense against any claims of possible infringement. When I say that, they click their briefcases shut, say "we're done here", and leave.
> 
> That seems a little stupid, there are billions of open source projects, and I never hear anyone giving that excuse not to contribute.
> 
> Your argument about having to convince people that a feature have merits or the bigger inertia to do changes is a valid one, but that one is just bogus.

False comparisons.  Walter commercially licenses DMC which shares a lot of code with DMD.  Looking at LLVM and GCC would open him up to legalities that are easily avoided by not.  MOST open source contributors aren't in that sort of position.

Would Oracle be in a tough spot if someone on their sql engine team contributed to the mysql code base (prior to it's being brought into the oracle family)?  Absolutely.  Even with it as part of the family, I bet good money that maintain a nice tight separation of resources to avoid the potential of tainting their commercial baby with gpl issues.

Bogus?  Not even a little.

Later,
Brad

Leandro Lucarella wrote:
> Walter Bright, el  5 de agosto a las 13:34 me escribiste:
>> mwarning wrote:
>>> On Thu, 05 Aug 2010 03:23:25 +0000, BCS wrote:
>>>
>>>> For a number of IP/legal reasons, Walter CAN'T work on LLVM or LDC.
>>> can you please elaborate a bit?
>>> I remember that statement has appeared before,
>>> but I can't remember the reason that was given.
>> Because when I've had the roomful of lawyers do their due diligence
>> on me, saying "I never looked at the source code" is an effective
>> defense against any claims of possible infringement. When I say
>> that, they click their briefcases shut, say "we're done here", and
>> leave.
> 
> That seems a little stupid, there are billions of open source projects,
> and I never hear anyone giving that excuse not to contribute.


Have you ever been specifically grilled by lawyers if you stole code from gcc? I have. When people are going to invest a lot of money in your stuff, it better be clean.

Neal Becker wrote:
> I'm delighted to hear 64bit linux and shared lib.  Very much looking forward to it.  Let me know if I can help test.

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