On Sunday, January 28, 2018 16:18:40 H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 05:13:15PM -0700, Jonathan M Davis via
Digitalmars-d wrote:
> > Either way, more folks need to put some time and/or money towards IDE development for D, or the folks who want first class IDE support for D are never going to have what they want.
>
> Still, it's strange that given the number of people who demand first class IDE support, there are so few who are willing to contribute to improving it.

I suspect that part of the problem is that if they really care that much about having an IDE, they don't get into D far enough to then put in the time to improving the situation.

> > Personally, I don't really care, because I have no interest in such support.  I have no problem if it gets implemented, and it probably is better for the D community if we have better IDE support, but it wouldn't improve my life any. If we're going to get improved tooling, I'd rather see more improvements to stuff like dub than better IDE support. So, I generally ignore the complaints about the lack of good IDE support. Either way, it's not something that I'm going to spend time on. I have too much on my TODO list already.
>
> [...]
>
> It doesn't really concern me either, but neither do I want the indifference of the non-IDE folk to be misunderstood as active neglect. But people will see what they want to see, so meh, I guess.  All I can say is, after coming to D, I did find some things not quite to my liking, so I fixed them myself and submitted PRs. And so did many others like me. And we're all better off for it.  Now if only more from the IDE crowd would do the same, things might be different...

That's really the only way that anything gets done around here. Someone decides that they want something fixed or implemented, so they put in the time to do it themselves, and everyone benefits. Almost nothing happens because of folks posting about how they want something done. The net result is that what gets done is heavily biased towards what the folks willing to put in the time and effort want done.

- Jonathan M Davis

On Monday, 29 January 2018 at 00:18:40 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
>
> Still, it's strange that given the number of people who demand first class IDE support, there are so few who are willing to contribute to improving it.
>

It's probably that they view programming languages as a tool to get things done. Investing a lot of time in writing an IDE or plugin is time that could instead be spent writing programs that are useful in some other language. That's why languages with better tooling usually have a lot of support from companies. The companies recognize that investing in the tools can help make some of their programmers more productive and it's worth the cost.

On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 01:23:49AM +0000, jmh530 via Digitalmars-d wrote: [...]
> It's probably that they view programming languages as a tool to get things done. Investing a lot of time in writing an IDE or plugin is time that could instead be spent writing programs that are useful in some other language.  That's why languages with better tooling usually have a lot of support from companies. The companies recognize that investing in the tools can help make some of their programmers more productive and it's worth the cost.

I wonder if the D foundation can help in this regard? Pay somebody to improve the tooling, etc..


T

-- 
"If you're arguing, you're losing." -- Mike Thomas

On 29/01/2018 9:35 AM, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 01:23:49AM +0000, jmh530 via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> [...]
>> It's probably that they view programming languages as a tool to get
>> things done. Investing a lot of time in writing an IDE or plugin is
>> time that could instead be spent writing programs that are useful in
>> some other language.  That's why languages with better tooling usually
>> have a lot of support from companies. The companies recognize that
>> investing in the tools can help make some of their programmers more
>> productive and it's worth the cost.
> 
> I wonder if the D foundation can help in this regard? Pay somebody to
> improve the tooling, etc..
> 
> 
> T

They are, dmd as a library :)

On Sunday, 28 January 2018 at 16:02:36 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
>> > The problem is Teoh that learning a language in Vim or a IDE are two totally different things.

vim is a fantastic tool but it can be time consuming to configure. So I am wondering if some vim-D users would kindly share their vim setup for D and maybe even give some insights into their vim-D work-flow?

Thx Dave

On Tuesday, 24 April 2018 at 07:15:38 UTC, Dave wrote:
> On Sunday, 28 January 2018 at 16:02:36 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
>>> > The problem is Teoh that learning a language in Vim or a IDE are two totally different things.
>
> vim is a fantastic tool but it can be time consuming to configure. So I am wondering if some vim-D users would kindly share their vim setup for D and maybe even give some insights into their vim-D work-flow?
>
> Thx Dave

You can checkout [0], [1] which have some nice info on setting up various IDEs and text editors for D. vim in specific already had syntax highlighting support by default. Just do `syntax on`. You can enable other features like standard library highlighting, util snips, etc, by looking at [2].

[0]:https://wiki.dlang.org/Editors
[1]:https://wiki.dlang.org/IDEs
[2]:https://wiki.dlang.org/D_in_Vim

Am Sat, 27 Jan 2018 14:58:27 -0800
schrieb "H. S. Teoh" <hsteoh@quickfur.ath.cx>:

> I use ctags with vim, and it's amazingly efficient: two keystrokes and I'm right at the right file in the right place on top of the definition of an identifier. Less than 1 second.  Yet when I work with my coworker, who uses a fancy GUI-based IDE, he has pull up the search function, re-type the identifer that the cursor is already sitting on, then wait for the thing to slowly churn through 50,000 source files looking for a pattern match, then reach for the mouse and drag the scrollbar down a long list of possible matches, then open the file, then navigate to the right place in the file. An order of magnitude slower.

His IDE doesn't seem all that fancy. All the ones I came across had "Jump to definition" (Visual Studio, IntelliJ, NetBeans, Eclipse, MonoDevelop, Turbo Delphi, Qt Creator, CoEdit).

F3            in Mono-D
Ctrl+Shift+Up in CoEdit

In Mono-D when you type in the opening '(' of a function call, it would pop up the documentation and show you which argument you are currently at. The arrow keys can be used to pick another function overload with the current one displayed as e.g. 1/3 in the corner.

> As for renaming files, what has that got to do with Vim?  It's just ctrl-Z, `mv orig.d dest.d`. Maybe followed by `git add dest.d`. Two seconds max.  Again, being unable to work with the OS efficiently is not a sign of an inherent flaw of the OS, just the inexperience of the user.

In a well working IDE like Eclipse for Java, you'd click on
the file, press F2 or whatever the key for a rename is, type
the new name (without extension), press Enter and it would
handle the file rename, git add and updating all references to
the module/class in the loaded projects.
Eat that editor user. :p

I for one can't do Ctrl+Z, "mv orig.d dest.d" and "git add
dest.d" in 2 seconds. I'm a slow typer. :( And that still
doesn't update all my imports referring to orig.d.

> T

-- 
Marco

Am Sat, 27 Jan 2018 07:54:37 -0500
schrieb Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy@yahoo.com>:

> If I had to write swift code without xcode, it would take me so much extra time, because there are things you just aren't going to get done without the tools. Swift's libraries are also vast and IMO confusingly named.

Same thing with Java. Without an IDE you see ridiculously long names and a lot of typing. But they do follow conventions that are understood by Java IDEs. The dummy implementation of an interface for example is always called <interface name>Adapter and can be auto-generated. All byte streams end in ...Stream and similar. This makes it easy to have mnemonics handy: "I'm looking for an input, buffered, stream". So you type IBS, auto-complete and the IDE expands that to InputBufferStream and takes care of the necessary import.

Some languages are developed with IDE support in mind, but are then limited in expressiveness and not editor friendly.

-- 
Marco