"Matthew Wilson" <matthew@stlsoft.org> ha scritto nel messaggio news:bjj6h8$2c34$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> [...] I see D
> as being primarily a better .NET, though not 100%. Probably its "market"
is
> 20% C, 20% C++, 50% .NET, 10% Java. (But that's only my opinion, of
course.

With properties (including static ones, of course), constructors and destructors being called by their name ("constructor" and "destructor") instead of the C++ way, plus an IDE and a standard library, D may even attract current Delphi users...

(...and with a little tomato ketchup on it, it may even be a threat to
McDonald's... :-) )

Ric

"Riccardo De Agostini" <riccardo.de.agostini@email.it> wrote in message news:bjjv11$f8b$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> "Matthew Wilson" <matthew@stlsoft.org> ha scritto nel messaggio news:bjj6h8$2c34$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> > [...] I see D
> > as being primarily a better .NET, though not 100%. Probably its "market"
> is
> > 20% C, 20% C++, 50% .NET, 10% Java. (But that's only my opinion, of
> course.
>
> With properties (including static ones, of course), constructors and destructors being called by their name ("constructor" and "destructor") instead of the C++ way, plus an IDE and a standard library, D may even attract current Delphi users...
>
> (...and with a little tomato ketchup on it, it may even be a threat to
> McDonald's... :-) )
>
> Ric
>
>

D will make it on the available libraries. .NET is an attractive proposition because of its vast arrays of libraries. Especially for the GUI. The same situation is with Java, plus the fact "write once, run everywhere".

What good does a super programming library like D makes, if there is no standard libraries to work with ?

"Achilleas Margaritis" <axilmar@in.gr> wrote in message news:bjk4i8$nbk$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>
> "Riccardo De Agostini" <riccardo.de.agostini@email.it> wrote in message news:bjjv11$f8b$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> > "Matthew Wilson" <matthew@stlsoft.org> ha scritto nel messaggio news:bjj6h8$2c34$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> > > [...] I see D
> > > as being primarily a better .NET, though not 100%. Probably its
"market"
> > is
> > > 20% C, 20% C++, 50% .NET, 10% Java. (But that's only my opinion, of
> > course.
> >
> > With properties (including static ones, of course), constructors and destructors being called by their name ("constructor" and "destructor") instead of the C++ way, plus an IDE and a standard library, D may even attract current Delphi users...
> >
> > (...and with a little tomato ketchup on it, it may even be a threat to
> > McDonald's... :-) )
> >
> > Ric
> >
> >
>
> D will make it on the available libraries. .NET is an attractive
proposition
> because of its vast arrays of libraries. Especially for the GUI. The same situation is with Java, plus the fact "write once, run everywhere".
>
> What good does a super programming library like D makes, if there is no standard libraries to work with ?

Well none, but the implied suggestion in your question, i.e. that none will be forthcoming, is erroneous.

"Matthew Wilson" <matthew@stlsoft.org> wrote in message news:bjkoth$1kek$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>
> "Achilleas Margaritis" <axilmar@in.gr> wrote in message news:bjk4i8$nbk$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> >
> > "Riccardo De Agostini" <riccardo.de.agostini@email.it> wrote in message news:bjjv11$f8b$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> > > "Matthew Wilson" <matthew@stlsoft.org> ha scritto nel messaggio news:bjj6h8$2c34$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> > > > [...] I see D
> > > > as being primarily a better .NET, though not 100%. Probably its
> "market"
> > > is
> > > > 20% C, 20% C++, 50% .NET, 10% Java. (But that's only my opinion, of
> > > course.
> > >
> > > With properties (including static ones, of course), constructors and
> > > destructors being called by their name ("constructor" and
"destructor")
> > > instead of the C++ way, plus an IDE and a standard library, D may even attract current Delphi users...
> > >
> > > (...and with a little tomato ketchup on it, it may even be a threat to
> > > McDonald's... :-) )
> > >
> > > Ric
> > >
> > >
> >
> > D will make it on the available libraries. .NET is an attractive
> proposition
> > because of its vast arrays of libraries. Especially for the GUI. The
same
> > situation is with Java, plus the fact "write once, run everywhere".
> >
> > What good does a super programming library like D makes, if there is no standard libraries to work with ?
>
> Well none, but the implied suggestion in your question, i.e. that none
will
> be forthcoming, is erroneous.
>
>
No, I did not imply that there will be no libraries. There will be, but the questions are:

1) when ?

    C# and Java are ready now. D is light years behind. We all know how
difficult is to get rid of a legacy language, with millions of lines of
source code behind them.

2) how good will they be ?

    Will the open source community have the resources to pull this off ? is
the open source community a match for the big workforce of companies like
Microsoft or Sun ? especially in a limited time period from one release to
another ?

3) will they be cross platform ?

    Most companies would like their apps to run both in the Windows and
Linux environment. Java is preferrable for this reason by a large
percentage.

> > > D will make it on the available libraries. .NET is an attractive
> > proposition
> > > because of its vast arrays of libraries. Especially for the GUI. The
> same
> > > situation is with Java, plus the fact "write once, run everywhere".
> > >
> > > What good does a super programming library like D makes, if there is
no
> > > standard libraries to work with ?
> >
> > Well none, but the implied suggestion in your question, i.e. that none
> will
> > be forthcoming, is erroneous.
> >
> >
> No, I did not imply that there will be no libraries. There will be, but
the
> questions are:
>
> 1) when ?
>
>     C# and Java are ready now. D is light years behind. We all know how
> difficult is to get rid of a legacy language, with millions of lines of
> source code behind them.

D has the advantage of being able to talk directly to C.

Of course, .NET and Java have enormous (though often badly designed) libraries. D has a big hill to climb, there's no denying that.

> 2) how good will they be ?
>
>     Will the open source community have the resources to pull this off ?
is
> the open source community a match for the big workforce of companies like Microsoft or Sun ? especially in a limited time period from one release to another ?

Dunno. I have this same concern myself.

We desperately need some kind of libraries group to ensure it all does not become a wild-woman's knitting. I think it can be done - we recently had a good debate about exceptions/errors, which ended with a pretty good concensus.

IMO D needs to provide a small set of essential libraries, all well designed, which can act as the basis for, and examples to, the development of third-party libraries, in much the same way that Java packages by 3rd-party vendors have become de-facto standard (e.g. those of Apache).

>
> 3) will they be cross platform ?
>
>     Most companies would like their apps to run both in the Windows and
> Linux environment. Java is preferrable for this reason by a large
> percentage.

I think D can do well here. There's nothing stopping things being cross-platform, but it's also good to be able to have platform-specific code, which Java does not (apart from costly JNI calls)


But your basic thesis is correct. There's a huge amount of work waiting to happen. We need some early libraries to set the examples.

"Achilleas Margaritis" <axilmar@in.gr> escreveu na mensagem news:bjkrm2$1og0$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>
> "Matthew Wilson" <matthew@stlsoft.org> wrote in message news:bjkoth$1kek$1@digitaldaemon.com...

[snip]

> > Well none, but the implied suggestion in your question, i.e. that none
> will
> > be forthcoming, is erroneous.
> >
> >
> No, I did not imply that there will be no libraries. There will be, but
the
> questions are:
>
> 1) when ?


Real Soon Now ;)


>     C# and Java are ready now. D is light years behind. We all know how
> difficult is to get rid of a legacy language, with millions of lines of
> source code behind them.


When Java started people said that about C++. Java won.


> 2) how good will they be ?


Probably better than Java. At least we have DbC in the language so the operation's contracts won't be just some fancy documentation.


>     Will the open source community have the resources to pull this off ?
is
> the open source community a match for the big workforce of companies like Microsoft or Sun ? especially in a limited time period from one release to another ?


People said the same about GNU/Linux, *BSD, etc. Time proved that the community can beat companies. Also Sun and Microsoft have very large release schedules, usually more than one year, while the Open Source is release early, release often.


> 3) will they be cross platform ?
>
>     Most companies would like their apps to run both in the Windows and
> Linux environment. Java is preferrable for this reason by a large
> percentage.

That will depend on three things: conforming compilers, reliance on embedded asm and linked libraries. I would bet that the portability problems will be few, specially when we can create contract layers around plataform dependent, so a new release will be tested in the available plataforms and most bugs will appear on the test builds.

<rant>
People should stop posting about lack of libraries in D and start coding
them. It's been almost a year since I released DTL 0.0.1, and I know there's
no excuse for my lack of work in the library, but since then nobody come
with another such library, just discussed about how they should look.
</rant>

    Best regards,
    Daniel Yokomiso.

"(define (.sig) (cons 'my (list 'other 'car 'is 'a 'cdr)))"


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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"Daniel Yokomiso" <daniel_yokomiso@yahoo.com.br> wrote in message news:bjlr65$4fg$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> "Achilleas Margaritis" <axilmar@in.gr> escreveu na mensagem news:bjkrm2$1og0$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> >
> > "Matthew Wilson" <matthew@stlsoft.org> wrote in message news:bjkoth$1kek$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>
> [snip]
>
> > > Well none, but the implied suggestion in your question, i.e. that none
> > will
> > > be forthcoming, is erroneous.
> > >
> > >
> > No, I did not imply that there will be no libraries. There will be, but
> the
> > questions are:
> >
> > 1) when ?
>
>
> Real Soon Now ;)

One year ? two years ? already late!!!

>
>
> >     C# and Java are ready now. D is light years behind. We all know how
> > difficult is to get rid of a legacy language, with millions of lines of
> > source code behind them.
>
>
> When Java started people said that about C++. Java won.

But C++ did not have standard libraries like Swing that work in any platform.

>
>
> > 2) how good will they be ?
>
>
> Probably better than Java. At least we have DbC in the language so the operation's contracts won't be just some fancy documentation.
>
>
> >     Will the open source community have the resources to pull this off ?
> is
> > the open source community a match for the big workforce of companies
like
> > Microsoft or Sun ? especially in a limited time period from one release
to
> > another ?
>
>
> People said the same about GNU/Linux, *BSD, etc. Time proved that the community can beat companies. Also Sun and Microsoft have very large
release
> schedules, usually more than one year, while the Open Source is release early, release often.

But OSS people have a motive to code for Linux and BSD. And it took 11 years for Linux to reach the current status. And it lacks several things Windows has, especially on the usability front.

>
>
> > 3) will they be cross platform ?
> >
> >     Most companies would like their apps to run both in the Windows and
> > Linux environment. Java is preferrable for this reason by a large
> > percentage.
>
> That will depend on three things: conforming compilers, reliance on
embedded
> asm and linked libraries. I would bet that the portability problems will
be
> few, specially when we can create contract layers around plataform dependent, so a new release will be tested in the available plataforms and most bugs will appear on the test builds.

The important compatibility is at source code level, not at binary level.

>
> <rant>
> People should stop posting about lack of libraries in D and start coding
> them. It's been almost a year since I released DTL 0.0.1, and I know
there's
> no excuse for my lack of work in the library, but since then nobody come with another such library, just discussed about how they should look. </rant>

Most definitely they should. I am available. We need to form a group, a coordinator...we need a virtual meeting room where we can discuss ideas...there is a lot of things to be done on the organizational front that I don't know anything about (and I am not willing to do).

>
>     Best regards,
>     Daniel Yokomiso.
>
> "(define (.sig) (cons 'my (list 'other 'car 'is 'a 'cdr)))"
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.514 / Virus Database: 312 - Release Date: 28/8/2003
>
>

Achilleas Margaritis wrote:

> Most definitely they should. I am available. We need to form a group, a
> coordinator...we need a virtual meeting room where we can discuss
> ideas...there is a lot of things to be done on the organizational front that
> I don't know anything about (and I am not willing to do).

Would you also be available to help write a C header -> D import converter?

BTW, we really need a sourceforge-like community website! Wasn't there anyone who just promised to get one running a few weeks ago?

-eye.

In article <bjnjdk$2iqc$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Ilya Minkov says...
>
>Achilleas Margaritis wrote:
>
>> Most definitely they should. I am available. We need to form a group, a coordinator...we need a virtual meeting room where we can discuss ideas...there is a lot of things to be done on the organizational front that I don't know anything about (and I am not willing to do).
>
>Would you also be available to help write a C header -> D import converter?
>
>BTW, we really need a sourceforge-like community website! Wasn't there anyone who just promised to get one running a few weeks ago?

The D Repository website is very close to being finished. I just posted another thread with more details about completion dates and testing schedules and stuff like that, but I didn't mention much about features in that other thread, so I should mention here that each project in the new site will have its own:

- source code repository
- download area
-  (for binary files, docs, archives, and for people without
a subversion repository client)
- bug tracking database
- customizable web area at http://projectname.xxxxxxx.com or
http://xxxxxxx.com/project/projectname (I'm not telling anyone the main site
domain yet; that's why I used xxxxxxx)
- discussion forum

The software that will be in use at the new site will be the G-Forge code. It's an open-source branch of the SourceForge code. You can read more about it at http://gforge.org . I'm making a few customizations to the code (so that it can connect to svn rather than cvs) but nothing major. I'll also be changing the template, so that our site will have its own look-and-feel. Over time, I may add other features to the code, by popular demand. For now, the features will be exactly the same as what's offered in the default gforge installation.

Benji Smith wrote:
> The D Repository website is very close to being finished.

Thanks!

> For now, the features will be exactly the same as what's offered in
> the default gforge installation.

Frankly, i cannot think out anything else to wish. :)

I'm not of any help with software, but i could do design or something... Never mind if you're ready with that. :)

-eye