On Thursday, 25 July 2019 at 09:02:22 UTC, NaN wrote:
> On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 13:21:48 UTC, Chris wrote:
>
> He does come across a bit mystical but what he says neither advocating the status quo nor is it anything particularly profound. Its plain common sense. If you want something to happen, start yourself and try to pull people with you. Its one of the oldest adages... "Lead by example". Whining and criticising other people because they arn't doing what you think they should be doing only works when you're actually paying them. And even then its not a great way to motivate people because if all you do is moan and criticise people stop listing. Doesn't matter if what you say is right or wrong, the delivery method kills any chance you have of being heard.

See, you're using the same lines "stop whining", "do it yourself". Great advice, I've given this advice to people too, with the difference that I only give this advice when I know that they actually _can_ change things. In D all this talk about "community effort" and "we're all in the same boat" (no, we're not) is just a smokescreen. It only serves to a) give the "followers" the impression that they are part of something and b) to shut critics up. You've just admitted yourself that it "[d]oesn't matter if what you say is right or wrong". So it's not about the issue at hand, it's about suppressing criticism. At least you're honest about it. Mind you, if it is more important _how_ something is said and _who_ says it then _what_ is being said, then you're entering the realm of ideology. It's certainly no longer engineering.

On Thursday, 25 July 2019 at 09:37:38 UTC, Chris wrote:
>>
>> criticising other people because they arn't doing what you think they should be doing only works when you're actually paying them. And even then its not a great way to motivate people because if all you do is moan and criticise people stop listing. Doesn't matter if what you say is right or wrong, the delivery method kills any chance you have of being heard.
>
> See, you're using the same lines "stop whining", "do it yourself".

I haven't told you what to do just pointed out that whining and criticising wont motivate anyone to listen to you never mind get them to do what you want.


> In D all this talk about "community effort" and "we're all in the same boat" (no, we're not) is just a smokescreen. It only serves to a) give the "followers" the impression that they are part of something and

I've never seen anyone say we're all in the same boat. Quite clearly we're not. There's a small group of people who work on D, really invest their time in making it better, and there's a large group of people who just use D, I'm in that later group. While I might occasionally gripe about something I have no expectation that people in the first group owe me anything, they don't have to listen to me or care what I say, it's their time they are putting in. Im just grateful that they do what they do because in spite of its issues I still prefer D to any of the 7 or 8 other languages I've used over the last 25 years.


> b) to shut critics up.

Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they are trying to silence you, as evidenced by the fact you speak up anytime one of these gripey threads pops up. The fact that you characterise it as such is interesting though.


> You've just admitted yourself that it "[d]oesn't matter if what you say is right or wrong". So it's not about the issue at hand, it's about suppressing criticism. At least you're honest about it. Mind you, if it is more important _how_ something is said and _who_ says it then _what_ is being said, then you're entering the realm of ideology. It's certainly no longer engineering.

Both are important. If you want people to listen you need to be respectful in stating your case and also listen and really consider their side too. Then if you want to actually influence them you have a convincing argument.

You've fallen at the first hurdle and the only person who can fix that is you.

On Thursday, 25 July 2019 at 16:08:53 UTC, NaN wrote:
[snip]
>
> You've fallen at the first hurdle and the only person who can fix that is you.

Sigh, you didn't really get my point. Anyway, this is how D works:

 “My dear, here we must run as fast as we can, just to stay in place. And if you wish to go anywhere you must run twice as fast as that.”

― Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 11:34:45 UTC, jmh530 wrote:
> On Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 11:15:10 UTC, Chris wrote:
>> [snip]
>>
>> std.v2? March 28:
>>
>> https://forum.dlang.org/post/q7j3s0$15n7$1@digitalmars.com
>
> It seemed like he was merely floating the idea of an std.v2. It's not like it was a blog post announcing that work would start on it or actively sought suggestions for a design spec.

This specific post about std.v2 is frequently quoted and people say that it gives them hope. I fear, based on past experience, that it's yet another new year's resolution that will not materialize or will take ages to do so. It seems to me that D is trying to emulate Rust and Go, because apparently D is mainly used for very specific purposes in the industry, the same areas Go and Rust are used in. D is becoming a "specific purpose" language as opposed to the "general purpose" language it's being advertised as. This would at least explain some decisions made in the past. There is of course the danger that Rust and Go will "win" and that D will have lost its appeal as a general purpose language.

> Regardless, the thread is about a specific issue with how people get paid to contribute to D. The person who is involved with the payments has said on one specific issue, he recognizes some mistakes, and is working to fix improve the situation. And your response is, "yeah, but that's what you always say, they said we would get a new standard library on March 28 and that's four months and I've been counting!" I mean, sometimes you have to give people the benefit of the doubt that they are working in the interest of the community the best they can. They have time constraints, other stuff to work on, family obligations, and any number of other things going on.

I know that Mike is under a lot of pressure (and I believe they dump a lot of stuff on him). But the way the whole payment issue has been handled (as we learned in this thread) is just bad. Nobody can deny that. And it's not the first time that the DLF has screwed up. Is getting the basics right asking too much?