Ant wrote:

> Shouldn't new languages be aware of IDEs?
> features and sintax should be designed having in mind
> that IDEs are here to help on the development cycle.

No ofcourse not.
The goal should be a good language for the user, not for other programs.
IDE's can be made to overcome problems, that's not the problem for 'new' languages to solve.

Mista wrote:

> Ant wrote:
> 
>> Shouldn't new languages be aware of IDEs?
>> features and sintax should be designed having in mind
>> that IDEs are here to help on the development cycle.
> 
> 
> No ofcourse not.
> The goal should be a good language for the user, not for other programs.
> IDE's can be made to overcome problems, that's not the problem for 'new' languages to solve.

I disagree.  If computers can easily understand the source code, then those computers can help us feeble humans out better.  Besides, simplicity usually benefits both humans and computers at the same time.  It's not a case of having to sacrifice one for the other.

The best example of this is in the difference between Microsoft's Visual C++ and C# editors.  The latter of which is amazing: the Visual C# editor highlights classes, namespaces, and other symbols with different colours, always provides *correct* drop-down auto-completion, and even underlines syntax errors on the fly.  The C++ editor can do none of these things, presumably because of the sheer complexity of C++.

At any rate, ease of implementation was and is an overt goal guiding the design of D, and I think it has achieved that admirably.

Now we just need something as good as Visual Studio for it. :)

 -- andy

In article <cc75gv$1gn9$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Andy Friesen says...
>
>The best example of this is in the difference between Microsoft's Visual C++ and C# editors.  The latter of which is amazing: the Visual C# editor highlights classes, namespaces, and other symbols with different colours, always provides *correct* drop-down auto-completion, and even underlines syntax errors on the fly.  The C++ editor can do none of these things, presumably because of the sheer complexity of C++.

More likely because Visual Studio .NET shipped incomplete :)  The Visual Studio 2003 editor is a vast improvement over the 2002 editor if you're interested in things like intellisense.  For D I've been using emacs and found it superior in some ways to Visual Studio, though it still has a few kinks to work out.  But then I don't much care about intellisense and the other new editor features.

>Now we just need something as good as Visual Studio for it. :)

When I see "IDE" I think debugger.  If Visual Studio could debug D apps as well as it can C++ apps I would dance for joy.

Sean

In article <cc75gv$1gn9$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Andy Friesen says...
>
>Mista wrote:
>
>> Ant wrote:
>> 
>>> Shouldn't new languages be aware of IDEs?
>>> features and sintax should be designed having in mind
>>> that IDEs are here to help on the development cycle.
>> 
>> 
>> No ofcourse not.
>> The goal should be a good language for the user, not for other programs.
>> IDE's can be made to overcome problems, that's not the problem for 'new'
>> languages to solve.
>
>I disagree.  If computers can easily understand the source code, then those computers can help us feeble humans out better.  Besides, simplicity usually benefits both humans and computers at the same time.
>  It's not a case of having to sacrifice one for the other.
>
>The best example of this is in the difference between Microsoft's Visual C++ and C# editors.  The latter of which is amazing: the Visual C# editor highlights classes, namespaces, and other symbols with different colours, always provides *correct* drop-down auto-completion, and even underlines syntax errors on the fly.  The C++ editor can do none of these things, presumably because of the sheer complexity of C++.
>
>At any rate, ease of implementation was and is an overt goal guiding the design of D, and I think it has achieved that admirably.
>

that's what I mean.

>Now we just need something as good as Visual Studio for it. :)

(can I plug leds here? better not...)

Ant

> At any rate, ease of implementation was and is an overt goal guiding the design of D, and I think it has achieved that admirably.
>
> Now we just need something as good as Visual Studio for it. :)

You hear that Ant -- we're counting on you! :-)

>   -- andy

On Sat, 3 Jul 2004 21:31:51 +0000 (UTC), Ant <Ant_member@pathlink.com> wrote:
> In article <cc75gv$1gn9$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Andy Friesen says...
>>
>> Mista wrote:
>>
>>> Ant wrote:
>>>
>>>> Shouldn't new languages be aware of IDEs?
>>>> features and sintax should be designed having in mind
>>>> that IDEs are here to help on the development cycle.
>>>
>>>
>>> No ofcourse not.
>>> The goal should be a good language for the user, not for other programs.
>>> IDE's can be made to overcome problems, that's not the problem for 'new'
>>> languages to solve.
>>
>> I disagree.  If computers can easily understand the source code, then
>> those computers can help us feeble humans out better.  Besides,
>> simplicity usually benefits both humans and computers at the same time.
>>  It's not a case of having to sacrifice one for the other.
>>
>> The best example of this is in the difference between Microsoft's Visual
>> C++ and C# editors.  The latter of which is amazing: the Visual C#
>> editor highlights classes, namespaces, and other symbols with different
>> colours, always provides *correct* drop-down auto-completion, and even
>> underlines syntax errors on the fly.  The C++ editor can do none of
>> these things, presumably because of the sheer complexity of C++.
>>
>> At any rate, ease of implementation was and is an overt goal guiding the
>> design of D, and I think it has achieved that admirably.
>>
>
> that's what I mean.
>
>> Now we just need something as good as Visual Studio for it. :)
>
> (can I plug leds here? better not...)

I have not used it yet, I'm on windows... does it have a keyboard mapping which is identical to Visual Studio?
I find it really irritating to have to learn a new keyboard mapping for every editor I might want to use.
If leds has a Visual Studio keyboard mapping, and runs on windows, then I will switch to it.

Regan.

-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Regan Heath wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Jul 2004 21:31:51 +0000 (UTC), Ant <Ant_member@pathlink.com> wrote:
> 
>> In article <cc75gv$1gn9$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Andy Friesen says...
>>
>>>
>>> Mista wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ant wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Shouldn't new languages be aware of IDEs?
>>>>> features and sintax should be designed having in mind
>>>>> that IDEs are here to help on the development cycle.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No ofcourse not.
>>>> The goal should be a good language for the user, not for other programs.
>>>> IDE's can be made to overcome problems, that's not the problem for 'new'
>>>> languages to solve.
>>>
>>>
>>> I disagree.  If computers can easily understand the source code, then
>>> those computers can help us feeble humans out better.  Besides,
>>> simplicity usually benefits both humans and computers at the same time.
>>>  It's not a case of having to sacrifice one for the other.
>>>
>>> The best example of this is in the difference between Microsoft's Visual
>>> C++ and C# editors.  The latter of which is amazing: the Visual C#
>>> editor highlights classes, namespaces, and other symbols with different
>>> colours, always provides *correct* drop-down auto-completion, and even
>>> underlines syntax errors on the fly.  The C++ editor can do none of
>>> these things, presumably because of the sheer complexity of C++.
>>>
>>> At any rate, ease of implementation was and is an overt goal guiding the
>>> design of D, and I think it has achieved that admirably.
>>>
>>
>> that's what I mean.
>>
>>> Now we just need something as good as Visual Studio for it. :)
>>
>>
>> (can I plug leds here? better not...)
> 
> 
> I have not used it yet, I'm on windows... does it have a keyboard mapping which is identical to Visual Studio?
> I find it really irritating to have to learn a new keyboard mapping for every editor I might want to use.
> If leds has a Visual Studio keyboard mapping, and runs on windows, then I will switch to it.

Sorry old chap, it isn't available for windows: though I eagerly
anticipate it's arival. Better yet "DMD" on OpenBSD! Oh well.
If I'm not mistaken, it does allow you to customize the kbd_mapping, which is just as effective.

> Regan.
> 

On Sat, 03 Jul 2004 21:15:33 -0400, Andrew Edwards <ridimz_at@yahoo.dot.com> wrote:
> Regan Heath wrote:
>> On Sat, 3 Jul 2004 21:31:51 +0000 (UTC), Ant <Ant_member@pathlink.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <cc75gv$1gn9$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Andy Friesen says...
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mista wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ant wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Shouldn't new languages be aware of IDEs?
>>>>>> features and sintax should be designed having in mind
>>>>>> that IDEs are here to help on the development cycle.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No ofcourse not.
>>>>> The goal should be a good language for the user, not for other programs.
>>>>> IDE's can be made to overcome problems, that's not the problem for 'new'
>>>>> languages to solve.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I disagree.  If computers can easily understand the source code, then
>>>> those computers can help us feeble humans out better.  Besides,
>>>> simplicity usually benefits both humans and computers at the same time.
>>>>  It's not a case of having to sacrifice one for the other.
>>>>
>>>> The best example of this is in the difference between Microsoft's Visual
>>>> C++ and C# editors.  The latter of which is amazing: the Visual C#
>>>> editor highlights classes, namespaces, and other symbols with different
>>>> colours, always provides *correct* drop-down auto-completion, and even
>>>> underlines syntax errors on the fly.  The C++ editor can do none of
>>>> these things, presumably because of the sheer complexity of C++.
>>>>
>>>> At any rate, ease of implementation was and is an overt goal guiding the
>>>> design of D, and I think it has achieved that admirably.
>>>>
>>>
>>> that's what I mean.
>>>
>>>> Now we just need something as good as Visual Studio for it. :)
>>>
>>>
>>> (can I plug leds here? better not...)
>>
>>
>> I have not used it yet, I'm on windows... does it have a keyboard mapping which is identical to Visual Studio?
>> I find it really irritating to have to learn a new keyboard mapping for every editor I might want to use.
>> If leds has a Visual Studio keyboard mapping, and runs on windows, then I will switch to it.
>
> Sorry old chap, it isn't available for windows: though I eagerly
> anticipate it's arival. Better yet "DMD" on OpenBSD! Oh well.
> If I'm not mistaken, it does allow you to customize the kbd_mapping, which is just as effective.

If this is the case, great, but could it ship with some pre defined keyboard mappings, like Visual Studio's.
It would make it easier to convert users of other IDE's :)

Regan

-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

> I have not used it yet, I'm on windows... does it have a keyboard mapping which is identical to Visual Studio?
> I find it really irritating to have to learn a new keyboard mapping for every editor I might want to use.
> If leds has a Visual Studio keyboard mapping, and runs on windows, then I will switch to it.

The ide deal breaker for me is the lack of workspace whiz (wwhiz.com) file globber equivalent. omg. Any editor without it feels like my hands are wrapped in duct tape.

On Sat, 03 Jul 2004 21:15:33 -0400, Andrew Edwards wrote:

> Regan Heath wrote:
> 
> Sorry old chap, it isn't available for windows: though I eagerly
> anticipate it's arival. Better yet "DMD" on OpenBSD! Oh well.
> If I'm not mistaken, it does allow you to customize the kbd_mapping,
> which is just as effective.
> 

I'm a eclipse user (at work-windows) that never saw Visual Studio.
I started leds after trying jext and admire
it's simplicity and effectiveness
and after rejecting eclipse on linux just because it's so slow.

leds still doesn't compile since dmd 0.91
see the Walter explanations on the "import bug - severe"
thread I started on the the D.bugs group.

so after that here is the keys configuration screenshot:

http://leds.sourceforge.net/prefEditorKeys.html

leds is being developed with leds and only recently I'm trying to
make it user friendly.
This issue was broght up before and I kinda of promissed that
I would included several preconfigured keyboard mapping.

Please email me your preferred (default for some IDE not customized)
keyboard mapping but be prepared to wait :(.

Ant