"pragma" <pragma_member@pathlink.com> wrote in message news:d1q1h1$hsg$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> Using a newsreader makes things far easier to manage, search and
> manipulate than
> any web app out there.  Most readers will allow you to display threads,
> track
> read/unread status of mesages, archive old posts, and manage your identity
> (signature and whatnot).

I use a newsreader (Outlook Express, though it's probably not up to snuff with some of the others available).  It's still much more cumbersome to search for information than on a web-based forum, as I would have to download the ENTIRE newsgroup in order to be able to search for something. Using a web-based forum, I can query for some data, the server does all the searching, and it returns to me the matches, without my having to download the entire forum database.

Perhaps other newsreaders will enable me to search newsgroups without having to download them?

I still feel rather restricted by the plaintext limitation.  There are some things which are just better expressed in the form of lists, tables, images etc.

In article <d1p0lh$2ct4$1@digitaldaemon.com>, bobef says...
>
>Maybe this one is for Walter... Why we are using this ugly forum? It is so hard to find anything here or follow a conversation.

And here I am wishing usenet were more popular :)

Though I'll grant that it would be nice if Google picked up the DigitalMars groups.


Sean

"Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:d1q3oh$k64$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> I use a newsreader (Outlook Express, though it's probably not up to snuff with some of the others available).  It's still much more cumbersome to search for information than on a web-based forum, as I would have to download the ENTIRE newsgroup in order to be able to search for something. Using a web-based forum, I can query for some data, the server does all
the
> searching, and it returns to me the matches, without my having to download the entire forum database.
>
> Perhaps other newsreaders will enable me to search newsgroups without
having
> to download them?

O.E.'s ability to search the news postings is lousy, but that is really not the fault of the newsgroup system but of O.E. I recently started using X1 (www.x1.com) to search the newsgroups.

Other than the search, I find using a decent newsreader to work very well, better than any web forum software I've run across. Let's take slashdot, for instance. The only thing it has going for it is the ability to moderate the posts from 1 to 5. It's miserable to use otherwise.

> I still feel rather restricted by the plaintext limitation.  There are
some
> things which are just better expressed in the form of lists, tables,
images
> etc.

The limitation is purely because of fuddy-duddy's like me who have html disabled on the newsreader for security reasons. Too bad nobody seems to make a newsreader that will read HTML but will ignore non-local links. You can still, however, attach images and they'll display properly even if html is turned off.

The 'webalizer' web interface to the newsgroups is not so good, I can agree with that. Write a better one, and we'll use it!

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:51:39 -0800, Walter wrote:

[snip]

> 
> The limitation is purely because of fuddy-duddy's like me who have html disabled on the newsreader for security reasons. Too bad nobody seems to make a newsreader that will read HTML but will ignore non-local links. You can still, however, attach images and they'll display properly even if html is turned off.

40Tude renders HTML and ignored for non-local links. You can't compose in
HTML, but I manage okay in spite of that. ;-)

> The 'webalizer' web interface to the newsgroups is not so good, I can agree with that. Write a better one, and we'll use it!

I've used a variety of Web-based newsgroups/forums and none of them meet my needs. phpBB seems to be the least disagreeable so far, but if somebody writes a better one, I'd give it turn.

-- 
Derek
Melbourne, Australia
23/03/2005 12:39:10 PM

Well, there's a few things here.  First, I should mention I write forum software - mine isn't used as much as phpBB, I'll admit, but it's also newer.

Regardless, forum administration likely isn't the problem.  Anyone who can figure out writing a compiler, or even using one, would find little trouble with managing a forum.  And newsgroup administration is fun too, depending on the daemon you use.

As for the server, it's digitaldaemon.com running Apache/1.3.31 (Unix) PHP/4.3.8 on FreeBSD (when you develop forum software and have a large support team, finding these things is trivial.)  So, my guess is he's got it, considering this person uses the same host:

http://forum.kneson.com/

The next question is activity.  The digitalmars.D newsgroup looks most active and it's seen about 50 posts in the last 24 hours.  That's nothing, not to deflate anyone's ego.  The forum I adminstrate gets say ten times that per the same period, and it's not even a huge forum.  I don't think activity is a problem.

I suspect the real issue is that Walter prefers the newsgroups.  That's a deal breaker, isn't it ;)?  I mean, sure... I like my bbc, moderators, searching, post editing, statistics, personal messages, and so forth... but they're all on the top.  And, most forums - including the one I write - have dropped the (imho flawed) idea of threading.  Some people like this form of communication, still.

If that *isn't* a problem, finding bandwidth, space, hosting, and the like definately wouldn't be.  Hosts will often times give FREE hosting to large scale projects such as D, in the hopes that it will promote them, etc.

-[Unknown]


> I've done some forum admin and it's pretty easy - the only problem is  finding the webspace/bandwidth with php and mySQL (if needed) support.

"Walter" <newshound@digitalmars.com> wrote in message news:d1qfcp$vqc$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> O.E.'s ability to search the news postings is lousy, but that is really
> not
> the fault of the newsgroup system but of O.E. I recently started using X1
> (www.x1.com) to search the newsgroups.

I suppose if it didn't cost $75, I'd spring for it.  Isn't there any other generalized kind of way to search the newsgroup database?  Or is it just a very strange setup?

> Other than the search, I find using a decent newsreader to work very well,
> better than any web forum software I've run across. Let's take slashdot,
> for
> instance. The only thing it has going for it is the ability to moderate
> the
> posts from 1 to 5. It's miserable to use otherwise.

Slashdot's "forum" _is_ miserable.  It's nothing more than a sort of extended guestbook.  I take it you've never used a phpBB, yaBB, or XMB-based forum then?

> The limitation is purely because of fuddy-duddy's like me who have html
> disabled on the newsreader for security reasons. Too bad nobody seems to
> make a newsreader that will read HTML but will ignore non-local links. You
> can still, however, attach images and they'll display properly even if
> html
> is turned off.

I'll have to remember that.

Though that is another attractive feature of something like yaBB - you can use formatting tags in your posts (like [b]bold[/b]) but you can also disallow HTML - thus really only allowing message formatting, and at most, linking to external images (which can even be turned off, if desired).

> The 'webalizer' web interface to the newsgroups is not so good, I can
> agree
> with that. Write a better one, and we'll use it!

I'll leave that up to someone who has some experience with PHP.

Everyone's tastes differ.  I know I've used a newsgroup reader better than the one on digitalmars.com, but I wouldn't be surprised if I couldn't find it anymore.  They've sorta gone out.

But, since you asked... there's a bunch of different forum softwares, and which you use really depends on what your needs are.  phpBB is very basic, with a nice user interface but a fairly simple administration area.  Good for entry level, unless you want things like attachments which will get your hands dirty.

Invision and vBulletin, also very popular, are not free but are fairly good solutions.  In my opinion, Invision is a bit bloated, but they are both nice softwares and vBulletin seems to scale well from my experience.

For other needs, there's UBB (imho a less pleasing one, but it's quite used...), Snitz (mainly for those without PHP), YaBB (perl), Phorum (threaded), XMB (popular mainly by virtue of being distributed with cPanel), MyTopix (meant for smaller usage, but looks pretty.)

As well, there's the software I write, which is free, called SMF.  Here are some links:

http://www.phpbb.com/
http://www.invisionboard.com/
http://www.vbulletin.com/
http://www.infopop.com/
http://forum.snitz.com/
http://www.yabbforum.com/
http://www.phorum.org/
http://www.xmbforum.com/
http://www.jaia-interactive.com/
http://www.simplemachines.org/

That's just web-based forum software though, not newsgroup readers. That's what you get for asking.  As for newsgroups, the only real one I can find now is Horde's Troll..

-[Unknown]


> I've used a variety of Web-based newsgroups/forums and none of them meet my
> needs. phpBB seems to be the least disagreeable so far, but if somebody
> writes a better one, I'd give it turn.

> O.E.'s ability to search the news postings is lousy, but that is really not
> the fault of the newsgroup system but of O.E. I recently started using X1
> (www.x1.com) to search the newsgroups.

Have you looked at Opera Mail?  I've heard good things about it, and whilst I use Thunderbird myself... Opera's has very nice message labeling and searching.  And Google text ads just like Google ;).

> Other than the search, I find using a decent newsreader to work very well,
> better than any web forum software I've run across. Let's take slashdot, for
> instance. The only thing it has going for it is the ability to moderate the
> posts from 1 to 5. It's miserable to use otherwise.

Slashdot is a poor example.  I wouldn't want to subject myself to that.  However, the obvious downside of a newsgroup is probably something you want: many people don't know how to get to it or use it.

While personally I wouldn't like this (hard to support people who can't find you), it does keep many of the newbies away (who wouldn't be able to figure out how to set up a news client in any case.)

> The limitation is purely because of fuddy-duddy's like me who have html
> disabled on the newsreader for security reasons. Too bad nobody seems to
> make a newsreader that will read HTML but will ignore non-local links. You
> can still, however, attach images and they'll display properly even if html
> is turned off.

I'm a fuddy-duddy too, then, because I read email and news without HTML.  The problems with security there are many fold, however, especially because of the things Internet Explorer has... "added" to its HTML. Sigh.  Anyway, many forums *are* written to do just this, and I know Thunderbird has a "safe HTML only" type feature.

> The 'webalizer' web interface to the newsgroups is not so good, I can agree
> with that. Write a better one, and we'll use it!

How about a script that syncronizes a database driven forum software with an NNTP daemon? (some forum softwares already have this.)

-[Unknown]

"Unknown W. Brackets" <unknown@simplemachines.org> wrote in message news:d1ql1t$14nk$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> I suspect the real issue is that Walter prefers the newsgroups.  That's a deal breaker, isn't it ;)?  I mean, sure... I like my bbc, moderators, searching, post editing, statistics, personal messages, and so forth... but they're all on the top.  And, most forums - including the one I write - have dropped the (imho flawed) idea of threading.  Some people like this form of communication, still.

True, and I can't stand threading either; replies are free to stray way off-topic, so you end up with posts that have a hundred replies in eight branches, all talking about something else.  Oh, the worst - the mongrel child of forums and NGs - forums on which you can have threading conversations.  Most confusing thing ever.

"Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:d1qn4b$16ug$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> "Unknown W. Brackets" <unknown@simplemachines.org> wrote in message news:d1ql1t$14nk$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>> I suspect the real issue is that Walter prefers the newsgroups.  That's a deal breaker, isn't it ;)?  I mean, sure... I like my bbc, moderators, searching, post editing, statistics, personal messages, and so forth... but they're all on the top.  And, most forums - including the one I write - have dropped the (imho flawed) idea of threading.  Some people like this form of communication, still.
>
> True, and I can't stand threading either; replies are free to stray way off-topic, so you end up with posts that have a hundred replies in eight branches, all talking about something else.  Oh, the worst - the mongrel child of forums and NGs - forums on which you can have threading conversations.  Most confusing thing ever.

It can get annoying when a thread wanders way off the original topic.
Sometimes I will miss entire discussions because some ancient thread (eg
[Sorta OT] License Restrictions) turned into something else(s) and I would
just skip it because OE keeps putting replies under that thread even if the
subject line changed. Is there some setting in OE to say "if the subject
line differs start a new thread even if it is a reply to an existing
message"? That would be nice.
But in general threading to me is the only way to keep the conversations
understandable. What bugs me is when two branches of a thread start getting
mixed together and answers questions in the other - oy vey!