I used to work as a computer technician and have PLENTY hundreds of hours (or thousands of them maybe) making backups, restoring program settings, saving mail data from Outlook Shit-Express and others, cleaning viruses/trojans/spyware/adware, configuring network and reinstalling/tuning Windows 95/98/2000/XP (of weak users that broke their systems in a week/month basis). It's the worst crap you can ever do and I hate the job, though I made pretty much cash with it. I agree, the registry is the worst design decision I've ever seen.

Linux is a beautiful system (and also is FreeBSD) but they both have their problems such as for example: they're hard to configure, they lack drivers, they lack applications for some professional enviroments (eg. autocad, 3dsmax, games,

many others), they are TOO complicated for regular people, without an Internet connection they're hard to learn, etc.

The morals of the story: computers ARE NOT for everybody yet now in the 2006, even with dumb-oriented systems as Windows XP. You choose with which harshness you want to live with when choosing an OS depending on the time you have and the tasks you'll be performing on the system.

What Walter has been through is something every Windows user has to pass once in a while, a pain in the ass.

In article <e0dtb1$2mld$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Juan Jose Comellas says...
>
>At some point in the past, the only way to be able to be certified "Windows-logo compatible" was if you used the registry to save your program's settings. I guess they wanted to make it really difficult to switch computers without reinstalling. The registry is probably the worst abomination to come from Redmond and it's the cause of most of the problems Windows has.
>
>
>Walter Bright wrote:
>
>> A few days ago, Outlook Express starting acting flaky - my account names were forcibly converted to 1, 2, 3, etc., and retyping in the correct ones refused to stick. Then, windows update started failing with useless messages consisting of 8 digit hex numbers.
>> 
>> So I thought I'd try Microsoft update tech support (which is free for update failures). They asked me to send them logs, which I did. Then, came an endless series of "try this ...", which usually involved unregistering a dozen dlls, rebooting, starting/stopping services, reregistering them, renaming system files, booting in safe mode, wiping directories, deleting files, rebooting, rebooting, all to no avail (except the 8 digit hex number would change).
>> 
>> Then came the exhortation to run a virus scan, with a couple links. The symantec virus scan crashed after a half hour. The other one completed, and found nothing.
>> 
>> At this point, it was apparent that tech support had no idea why this was happening, and I was beginning to worry there was either a rootkit installed, or there was just creeping corruption going on. I gave up on Microsoft tech support, and decided to reinstall Windows.
>> 
>> Do you know it takes THREE HOURS to install Windows from scratch? Gads, you install XP from the CD which requires rebooting several times, then again from the XP SP2 update CD (rebooting n more times), then you log in to Windows update and update/reboot 4 or 5 more times. Why can't Windows Update download everything at once and reboot only once?
>> 
>> So now I've got Windows reinstalled. Now comes the dance of reinstalling everything else. The worst is, of course, Outlook Express which completely loses track of everything after a reinstall. I have a crib sheet of most of the settings, but even so, there's no way to restore which newsgroup files are read/unread. I also use the undocumented method of finding which gawdawful directory O.E. squirrels the files away in (all in deeply nested hidden directories with 80+ character tty noise filenames) and saving/restoring the dbx files manually.
>> 
>> Most of the other apps aren't too bad, if you were smart enough to keep a crib sheet of all the serial numbers, registration numbers, and funky passwords. The whole job takes about 12 hours.
>> 
>> Morals of the story:
>> 
>> 1) Keep a crib sheet of all the settings, passwords, serial numbers, registration follderalls, etc.
>> 
>> 2) If you're going to provide an update program, fer cryin out loud, make it a monolithic program that doesn't depend on everything else in the OS working perfectly. After all, when you need it, it's probably because the rest of the system isn't right. And if the update program itself is corrupted, then tech support can just send you a new one.
>> 
>> 3) If you're writing an app, don't require it to be reinstalled if Windows is reinstalled. DM programs don't need to be. Store your configuration in some text file that can be saved/restored. Please!
>> 
>> 4) If you're going to need to muck about with the system registry, do it like Quicken does. Quicken has a menu item "Backup" which, amazingly enough, backs up all its settings and crud to a file you specify. Then, I reinstall Quicken from the CD, hit "Restore" and give the file name, and it fixes itself. Quicken is full of horrible design choices, but at least they got that right. No other app I've used does that.
>> 
>> 5) Never, ever install anything with DRM on it on your work computer. DRM often involves rootkits, installing new drivers that destabilize your system, etc. This includes most game software. Use a separate computer for DRM, one that you won't mind regularly reinstalling Windows on.
>> 
>> There, I feel better now <g>.
>

Tom;

I'm just waiting for not the DRM rootkit from Sony, but the DRM virus from Mr. Hacker that makes it so all my files are processor-enforced going to expire in three days, and can no longer be copied off my hard drive.  That will make my life interesting.  Then, I will finally switch my primary machine to Linux.

As for Windows reinstallation... I've done it enough times I already do all those things ;).  Windows 98 was so much worse than XP too... with XP, depending on how you do it, you can usually keep the registry. Unless of course it's corrupted, that is.

Hope things work out more favorably with after all this mess.  For what it's worth, many other newsgroup clients - like Thunderbird, which I'm using now, and Opera - don't use the registry and have a directory you can just backup or copy over :).

-[Unknown]


> A few days ago, Outlook Express starting acting flaky - my account names were forcibly converted to 1, 2, 3, etc., and retyping in the correct ones refused to stick. Then, windows update started failing with useless messages consisting of 8 digit hex numbers.
> 
> So I thought I'd try Microsoft update tech support (which is free for update failures). They asked me to send them logs, which I did. Then, came an endless series of "try this ...", which usually involved unregistering a dozen dlls, rebooting, starting/stopping services, reregistering them, renaming system files, booting in safe mode, wiping directories, deleting files, rebooting, rebooting, all to no avail (except the 8 digit hex number would change).
> 
> Then came the exhortation to run a virus scan, with a couple links. The symantec virus scan crashed after a half hour. The other one completed, and found nothing.
> 
> At this point, it was apparent that tech support had no idea why this was happening, and I was beginning to worry there was either a rootkit installed, or there was just creeping corruption going on. I gave up on Microsoft tech support, and decided to reinstall Windows.
> 
> Do you know it takes THREE HOURS to install Windows from scratch? Gads, you install XP from the CD which requires rebooting several times, then again from the XP SP2 update CD (rebooting n more times), then you log in to Windows update and update/reboot 4 or 5 more times. Why can't Windows Update download everything at once and reboot only once?
> 
> So now I've got Windows reinstalled. Now comes the dance of reinstalling everything else. The worst is, of course, Outlook Express which completely loses track of everything after a reinstall. I have a crib sheet of most of the settings, but even so, there's no way to restore which newsgroup files are read/unread. I also use the undocumented method of finding which gawdawful directory O.E. squirrels the files away in (all in deeply nested hidden directories with 80+ character tty noise filenames) and saving/restoring the dbx files manually.
> 
> Most of the other apps aren't too bad, if you were smart enough to keep a crib sheet of all the serial numbers, registration numbers, and funky passwords. The whole job takes about 12 hours.
> 
> Morals of the story:
> 
> 1) Keep a crib sheet of all the settings, passwords, serial numbers, registration follderalls, etc.
> 
> 2) If you're going to provide an update program, fer cryin out loud, make it a monolithic program that doesn't depend on everything else in the OS working perfectly. After all, when you need it, it's probably because the rest of the system isn't right. And if the update program itself is corrupted, then tech support can just send you a new one.
> 
> 3) If you're writing an app, don't require it to be reinstalled if Windows is reinstalled. DM programs don't need to be. Store your configuration in some text file that can be saved/restored. Please!
> 
> 4) If you're going to need to muck about with the system registry, do it like Quicken does. Quicken has a menu item "Backup" which, amazingly enough, backs up all its settings and crud to a file you specify. Then, I reinstall Quicken from the CD, hit "Restore" and give the file name, and it fixes itself. Quicken is full of horrible design choices, but at least they got that right. No other app I've used does that.
> 
> 5) Never, ever install anything with DRM on it on your work computer. DRM often involves rootkits, installing new drivers that destabilize your system, etc. This includes most game software. Use a separate computer for DRM, one that you won't mind regularly reinstalling Windows on.
> 
> There, I feel better now <g>. 
> 
> 

pragma wrote:
> 
> Also, linux is not without its warts too.  I'm having a hell of a time trying to get it to support Nforce3 from a floppy install - AFAIK, it can't be done w/o some serious hacking or using a CD instead.
> 
> - EricAnderton at yahoo

That is more of a case of nVidia sending out cease and desist orders to those trying to create open drivers. Instead you have to use their binary blob that's usually less stable (and definately harder to debug for the communities.)

> Do you know it takes THREE HOURS to install Windows from scratch? Gads, you install XP from the CD which requires rebooting several times, then again from the XP SP2 update CD (rebooting n more times), then you log in to Windows update and update/reboot 4 or 5 more times. Why can't Windows Update download everything at once and reboot only once?

it is nearly possible (you can speedup the installation)

1. copy your xp-installation cd onto your harddisk

2. slipstream your xp-cd-copy with the sp2 (permanently)
(http://www.helpwithwindows.com/WindowsXP/winxp-sp2-bootcd.html)
ca. 15min

3. use an update-tool (there are many out there - try google) to update your xp-cd-copy with all other hotfixes
(http://www.ryanvm.net/msfn/updatepack.html)
(http://sereby.german-nlite.de/)
ca. 10min

(4. you can write back this updated xp version back to an cd)

5. install xp using the xp-cd-copy folder (it is a very fast method: because of the harddisk-speed and the not needed internet updated)
ca. xyz min (i don't know)

ciao dennis

Walter Bright wrote:
> 
> So now I've got Windows reinstalled. Now comes the dance of reinstalling everything else. The worst is, of course, Outlook Express which completely loses track of everything after a reinstall. I have a crib sheet of most of the settings, but even so, there's no way to restore which newsgroup files are read/unread. I also use the undocumented method of finding which gawdawful directory O.E. squirrels the files away in (all in deeply nested hidden directories with 80+ character tty noise filenames) and saving/restoring the dbx files manually.

It's probably not an option if you have so much archived, but I've found Thunderbird to be a capable email client, and all the old settings can be picked up by saving/restoring the proper folder in Application Data.

> Most of the other apps aren't too bad, if you were smart enough to keep a crib sheet of all the serial numbers, registration numbers, and funky passwords. The whole job takes about 12 hours.

I've found Password Safe to be invaluable for this sort of thing.  It's free, secure, and you can find out about it here:

http://www.schneier.com/passsafe.html

> Morals of the story:
> 
> 1) Keep a crib sheet of all the settings, passwords, serial numbers, registration follderalls, etc.

Definately.  I have an emergency sheet locked away with such information on it.

> 3) If you're writing an app, don't require it to be reinstalled if Windows is reinstalled. DM programs don't need to be. Store your configuration in some text file that can be saved/restored. Please!


Hear hear!  For me, reinstalling Windows isn't so bad, but reinstalling the apps takes days.  Life would be so much easier if I could simply archive program directories.

> 4) If you're going to need to muck about with the system registry, do it like Quicken does. Quicken has a menu item "Backup" which, amazingly enough, backs up all its settings and crud to a file you specify. Then, I reinstall Quicken from the CD, hit "Restore" and give the file name, and it fixes itself. Quicken is full of horrible design choices, but at least they got that right. No other app I've used does that.

Aye.  Quicken is fantastic.

> 5) Never, ever install anything with DRM on it on your work computer. DRM often involves rootkits, installing new drivers that destabilize your system, etc. This includes most game software. Use a separate computer for DRM, one that you won't mind regularly reinstalling Windows on.

Sadly, I have a SecuROM folder in my user data--probably from games. I'd delete it, but that sounds like an invitation for trouble.


Sean

pragma wrote:
> 
> Now if I were to ask a linux/unix guru "does the operating system have any kind
> of universal configuration storage medium, that is both fast and optimizable?",
> the answer would be "the filesystem, duh."

For what it's worth, MS appears to be moving away from the registry as the place to store things.  The .NET API uses XML formatted files for such things.

> Why they didn't just come up with a universal configuraiton file tree ( /etc
> anyone? ), with filesystem drivers that feature superior or tree-specific
> caching, I'll never know.  In every possible way, it would have provided a more
> stable configuration, for about half as much engineering.

MS seems to be built on the idea of finding the most complex solution possible for simple problems.  Sometimes I think they do it so they can farm out contract work.


Sean

dennis luehring wrote:
...
> 2. slipstream your xp-cd-copy with the sp2 (permanently)
> (http://www.helpwithwindows.com/WindowsXP/winxp-sp2-bootcd.html)
> ca. 15min
...

Slipstreaming service packs onto CD saved me a lot of time on my XP reinstalls - you can also set up an automated install so you don't have to go through all the guff of entering keys, time zones and localisation settings every time.

pragma wrote:
> In article <e0e770$21p$1@digitaldaemon.com>, John C says...
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Also, linux is not without its warts too.  I'm having a hell of a time trying to
> get it to support Nforce3 from a floppy install - AFAIK, it can't be done w/o
> some serious hacking or using a CD instead.
> 
> - EricAnderton at yahoo

I set up my dual-boot XP/Gentoo machine at home using VMWare since I have an nForce motherboard.  I can't really do a network install booted into Linux without drivers for the network card... so VMWare to the rescue.  I set it loose to use the physical hard drive so I can install Linux onto my HD and boot into it later, *after* I download the nVidia drivers for my system.

I decided to leave it installing in a VM because it takes a helluva long time to install Gentoo (compiling, compiling, compiling...).  I think I had it running for > 2.5 days before I had a minimally working system. Now I barely use it and just use XP as the regular OS.

-- 
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS/MU/S d-pu s:+ a-->? C++++$ UL+++ P--- L+++ !E W-- N++ o? K? w--- O M--@ V? PS PE Y+ PGP- t+ 5 X+ !R tv-->!tv b- DI++(+) D++ G e++>e h>--->++ r+++ y+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

James Dunne

> ...
>Now if I were to ask a linux/unix guru "does the operating system have any kind of universal configuration storage medium, that is both fast and optimizable?", the answer would be "the filesystem, duh."
>
>I think the registry's #1 problem is that it has put on the winNT kernel, the responsibility of maintaining two separate "filesystems", with completely different interfaces and use characteristics.  As a result, the two compete for the same resources (CPU, Cache, RAM and Disk Bandwidth) rather than cooperate.
>
>Another way to look at it is: what happens to the registry if you're using a program that doesn't talk to it?  Yep, it's still in RAM waiting to be used.
>
>Why they didn't just come up with a universal configuraiton file tree ( /etc anyone? ), with filesystem drivers that feature superior or tree-specific caching, I'll never know.  In every possible way, it would have provided a more stable configuration, for about half as much engineering.
>
>- EricAnderton at yahoo

I think it's because Windows 95 and 98 were based on a DOS subsystem. Such
systems could not support real multi threading. Therefore to make an efficient
configuration file tree, a threaded FS would have been a better solution than a
good ol' DOS system call. As one of MS' policies is (or was ?) to be backward
compatible, and as win95 and winNT were developed at the same time, the registry
has been kept in winNT. Win2K was based on winNT and winXP is based on win2K (
to speak in very simple terms ). Hence the registry survival.
That concludes the murder (suicide ?) of Walter's windows installation.

- Rémy.

pragma wrote:
> In article <e0dtb1$2mld$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Juan Jose Comellas says...
>> At some point in the past, the only way to be able to be certified "Windows-logo compatible" was if you used the registry to save your program's settings. I guess they wanted to make it really difficult to switch computers without reinstalling. The registry is probably the worst abomination to come from Redmond and it's the cause of most of the problems Windows has.
> 
> Here's how I look at it.  The registry works fantastic for a few things:
> 
> 1) Making explorer do file type magic
> 2) OLE/Drag-and-Drop interoperability (more file type registration and metadata)
> 3) COM registry
> 4) Application initalization
> 
> .. but design wise it has the following drawbacks:
> 
> 1) Behaves as its own entity in memory (can you say "cache-thrashing"?)
> 2) Has its own LRU algorithm and behavior
> 3) Is prone to bloat, as applications abuse it in various ways

IMO the worst thing is that you really can't separate all the per-user settings from the system-wide configuration. That makes it impossible to backup your personal data without 3rd party programs. In *nixes it's damn easy to backup your home directory without any problems and restore all data to another system in a breeze. Even a newbie can do that.

> Why they didn't just come up with a universal configuraiton file tree ( /etc anyone? ), with filesystem drivers that feature superior or tree-specific caching, I'll never know.  In every possible way, it would have provided a more stable configuration, for about half as much engineering.

FAT-file systems used to have bad space efficiency. Currently a complex registry would require you to have at least reiserfs4 to work fast enough.

-- 
Jari-Matti