Tiberiu Gal wrote:
> http://dworks.marte.ro/template3

Sorry if this sounds offensive, but what's the point in offering a graphic if the result should be HTML+CSS? A web site should scale with the size of the browser window and the font size chosen by the user. These are the first things to get right and only then you can try to make it look pretty. This is especially true for a site with a technical subject. It needs a good navigation structure and it has to work.


op

Tiberiu Gal wrote:
> In article <e4hahl$uci$1@digitaldaemon.com>, nick says...
>> Tiberiu Gal wrote:
>>> http://dworks.marte.ro/template3
>>>
>> I am not trying to push my layout so much as I don't want everyone to go
>> and make their own (this is a common trend in the D community). Also, I
>> am concerned (read "I am almost certain") that the template you suggest
>> will be impossible to implement well with just CSS.
>>
>> The most immediate problem is that you seem to rely on a lot of images;
>> how will you handle font size scaling without using tables?
>>
>> Have you considered using an existing template?
>> http://www.hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html
> 
> just css? why? what's wrong with tables?

Great question (what's wrong with tables?) - served me well over many years and many web pages.

> I know what's wrong with tables, I also know what's wrong with css, I preffer
> tables for layout, I only use css for text formating (that's may way)

Same here - can't argue with success...

> I know your template, it's clean, very easy to implement, ...but it doesn't say
> much. I make everything a bit more bombastic, that's how I work. it's not always
> the best option, I know...but it says "this is different, this is not like the
> rest, we have something special". many people go for the image and the content
> is left behind.
> I hope I'm not too pushy with my style... this is just an option, the community
> will have to decide
> 
> 

John Reimer wrote:
> Brian Hay wrote:
>> On 18/05/2006 10:17 AM, nick wrote:
>>> Tiberiu Gal wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://dworks.marte.ro/template3
>>>
>>> I am not trying to push my layout so much as I don't want everyone to go
>>> and make their own (this is a common trend in the D community). Also, I
>>> am concerned (read "I am almost certain") that the template you suggest
>>> will be impossible to implement well with just CSS.
>>>
>>> The most immediate problem is that you seem to rely on a lot of images;
>>> how will you handle font size scaling without using tables?
>>>
>>> Have you considered using an existing template?
>>> http://www.hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html
>>
>> FWIW: I prefer the clean style of Nick's template also. I don't think Tiberiu Gal's template is "impossible to implement well in CSS" but certainly harder and, more importantly, the design I'd imagine doesn't appeal/cater as much to the target audience i.e. programmers.
>>
>> Brian.
> 
> 
> I prefer Tiberiu's template.  I think it will cater to programmers just as fine as anyone else.  Really, I don't think being a programmer should have much influence on whether a person likes that template or not.
> 

I agree - it has a nice clean look to it, yet seems both modern and "minimalistic" (and that's not a detractor). I really like the Mars/D logo as well.

> But imagining and thinking prove very little in this regard, since every person seems capable of such activities. :)
> 
> 
> -JJR

Hi Tiberiu Gal, you wrote:
> just css? why? what's wrong with tables?
> I know what's wrong with tables, I also know what's wrong with css, I preffer
> tables for layout, I only use css for text formating (that's may way)
I know that you know it but... The usage of tables in markup is meant for tabular data. Not for page layout. Unfortunately the dark age when there was no standards make this as a common practice. Properly structured markup is like properly designed application - its might be harder or time consuming, but always better.

Besides there is a practical reasons not to use tables and/or images for layout. Inflexibility - tables layout couldn't be changed without altering markup. With CSS-controlled layout it is possible to change different layouts 'on fly', or if user work with small screen/window he could 'flatten' layout by turning off style. Bloat - unnecessary images and/or tags makes site to waste everyones traffic with no purpose.
And (I'm little bit afraid to say this aloud, but..) with CSS-controlled layout there is further separation data from presentation.

> I make everything a bit more bombastic, that's how I work. it's not always
> the best option, I know...but it says "this is different, this is not like the
> rest, we have something special". many people go for the image and the content
> is left behind.
If you haven't yet (although i'm sure you have), please look at CSS Zen Garden project (http://csszengarden.com/) - nothing prevents people from make 'bombastic' things with css-controlled layouts. However I prefer stylish ones.

PS. It is a little bit wrong forum to discuss this topic (no offense, of course).

Brian Hay wrote:
> On 18/05/2006 11:04 AM, Brian Hay wrote:
> 
>> FWIW: I prefer the clean style of Nick's template also. I don't think Tiberiu Gal's template is "impossible to implement well in CSS" but certainly harder and, more importantly, the design I'd imagine doesn't appeal/cater as much to the target audience i.e. programmers.
> 
> 
> I should have mentioned that I think the D logo design on Tiberiu's template is great - certainly the best of all the proposed logos I've seen to date.
> 
> Brian.
> 

That logo was proposed a while back ;)

On 18/05/2006 3:25 PM, Dave wrote:
> Tiberiu Gal wrote:
>> just css? why? what's wrong with tables?
> 
> 
> Great question (what's wrong with tables?) - served me well over many years and many web pages.

Tables are for tabular data, not layouts.

Tables aren't good for accessibility (screen readers for the blind etc) or searchability.

Most search engines weight page relevance not only on the content and tag "importance" (e.g. P, H1, H2, H3 etc) but also on the content's order within the HTML page. So a H1 at the top of a page followed by a well-written explanatory paragraph increases relevance reletive to pages with similar content poorly structured. Placing content within table cells, surrounded by empty cells (or with spacer or GUI images), can work to decrease search engine relevance.

Using tables mixes content and layout, whereas intelligent use of XHTML + CSS can almost completely separate content and layout, making future maintenance and desgn makeovers MUCH easier - simply replace the stylesheet.

There are many reasons not to use tables, but these are the 3 most important IMHO.

And anyway, good XHTML structure plus CSS can realize all layouts formerly done with tables, even with inadequate CSS support in MSIE 5/6.


Brian.

As a freelancer programmer for a long time I have seen the creation of websites done this way about 90% of the time.  A graphic designer creates an image of what the site should look like, and then breaks it into a template you can use to create the pages with.

Getting the design right is the first step.  Breaking into HTML+CSS is trivial.

Olaf Pohlmann wrote:
> Tiberiu Gal wrote:
>> http://dworks.marte.ro/template3
> 
> Sorry if this sounds offensive, but what's the point in offering a graphic if the result should be HTML+CSS? A web site should scale with the size of the browser window and the font size chosen by the user. These are the first things to get right and only then you can try to make it look pretty. This is especially true for a site with a technical subject. It needs a good navigation structure and it has to work.
> 
> 
> op
> 

Looks great I really hope Walter goes with this.

Charlie

Tiberiu Gal wrote:
> http://dworks.marte.ro/template3
> 
> 

please don't make this a html forum...

I think the phpbb at dsource.org is a better place to talk about this.
this, I mean the site design and logos ... this really has nothing to do with d
programming.
I already started a topic:
http://dsource.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=9229#9229

thank you

> that the template you suggest
> will be impossible to implement well with just CSS.

What is the crazy need for just CSS ?  And when did tables become the devil ?

Honestly - using just CSS for layout sounds perverse.

I know , do the whole thing in XML and we'll just use XSLT to display it!

Charlie



nick wrote:
> Tiberiu Gal wrote:
>> http://dworks.marte.ro/template3
>>
> 
> I am not trying to push my layout so much as I don't want everyone to go
> and make their own (this is a common trend in the D community). Also, I
> am concerned (read "I am almost certain") that the template you suggest
> will be impossible to implement well with just CSS.
> 
> The most immediate problem is that you seem to rely on a lot of images;
> how will you handle font size scaling without using tables?
> 
> Have you considered using an existing template?
> http://www.hcoop.net/~natamas/d/template.html