Ok, I was thinking of how to improve the way the community manages D language feature requests, change proposals, etc., and I have come forth with a idea I've mentioned before of using the Wiki to keep track of language proposals (called D Change Proposals?).

The point of having a wiki entry is to either help create a final proposal (by detailing the different alternatives, etc.) or to simply keep track of the status quo of the proposal (what are the issues, the possible solutions, what does the community think, what does Walter think, etc.)

I have created a wiki template:
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?DCP_Template
which offers a template for a Change Proposal document, and some guidelines for the respective proposal process. Do give your comments, thoughts, etc.
Note that the template is mostly a collection of suggestions that I wanted to present (and open to collaborative editing). It is not about strict adherence, one can use parts of it, variations, etc., In fact as you can see, the template is not complete/finished, nor has to be. The parts with "?" are more particularly open for comments.

Here is an example DCP:
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?DCP_DefaultPrivateImports

-- 
Bruno Medeiros - CS/E student
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D

Bruno Medeiros wrote:

Thanks, good idea to better structurize/summarize the discussions in this NG.

It's also important to have pointers to the original discussions to have background perspective (you did that as I see).

-- 
AKhropov

"Bruno Medeiros" <brunodomedeirosATgmail@SPAM.com> wrote in message news:e9bd62$1jae$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> Ok, I was thinking of how to improve the way the community manages D language feature requests, change proposals, etc., and I have come forth with a idea I've mentioned before of using the Wiki to keep track of language proposals (called D Change Proposals?).
>
> The point of having a wiki entry is to either help create a final proposal (by detailing the different alternatives, etc.) or to simply keep track of the status quo of the proposal (what are the issues, the possible solutions, what does the community think, what does Walter think, etc.)
>
> I have created a wiki template:
> http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?DCP_Template
> which offers a template for a Change Proposal document, and some guidelines for the respective proposal process. Do give your comments, thoughts, etc.
> Note that the template is mostly a collection of suggestions that I wanted to present (and open to collaborative editing). It is not about strict adherence, one can use parts of it, variations, etc., In fact as you can see, the template is not complete/finished, nor has to be. The parts with "?" are more particularly open for comments.
>
> Here is an example DCP:
> http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?DCP_DefaultPrivateImports
>
> -- 
> Bruno Medeiros - CS/E student
> http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D


*sigh*

Excuse me for being so pessimistic, Bruno. But this has all been suggested before, over and over and over again over the past few years.  What are you trying to accomplish?  Every six months or so another exuberant personality, not unlike yourself,  pops up in this newsgroup with a "hey, I've got a incredible idea!" and tries to guide the community into a new rash of "exceptional" suggestions for organizing proposals and managing a very inscrutable and unmanageable Walter.

It doesn't work, hasn't worked, and won't work -- believe me.  Has Walter backed you on this?  Do you think Walter will take out of his day to look at this list (not the first list by far, either)?  Are you serious? If not, what in the world are trying to do? If it makes you feel good, please realize that's all it's doing. Because it's likely to do absolutely nothing for anyone here or the promotion or improvement of D.

You are better off getting control of yourself, sitting down and putting all that restless energy to use documenting or programming D libraries. That would be much more effective in getting D going than what you are suggesting.  Leave the proposal suggestions for those that have even a smidgeon of a chance of getting Walter's attention.

Why am I being so harsh?  Mostly because you are becoming ruthlessly persistent in conveying your "wisdom" without making consideration for the current circumstance or your own standing here in the community; you still haven't proved your worth with real live D contributions beyond your prodigious number of postings.

I encourage you to start playing with D, write tutorials, convert libraries, exercise D for all it's worth.  Establish yourself as a D contributor! If you want to be a leader in the D community, prove yourself by setting a reliable and observable example of dedication (beyond mere postings to this newsgroup)!  Then come back and tell Walter and the community what needs to be done.

If you really want to see D progress, you'll have to move as much useful code to it as possible, and demonstrate to the outside programming community why D is so great.  That's where you will have much more influence. Because you just haven't developed that sort of influence in here yet.

Remember, Bruno, you are young, and your ideas are not new.  If this offends you, I'm sorry.  You are just much to vocal for your own good; and I think you need to be yanked down now again before you get yourself in over your head. It gets wearisome to see this happen over and over again.

-JJR 

John Reimer wrote:
> 
> "Bruno Medeiros" <brunodomedeirosATgmail@SPAM.com> wrote in message news:e9bd62$1jae$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>> Ok, I was thinking of how to improve the way the community manages D language feature requests, change proposals, etc., and I have come forth with a idea I've mentioned before of using the Wiki to keep track of language proposals (called D Change Proposals?).
>>
>> The point of having a wiki entry is to either help create a final proposal (by detailing the different alternatives, etc.) or to simply keep track of the status quo of the proposal (what are the issues, the possible solutions, what does the community think, what does Walter think, etc.)
>>
>> I have created a wiki template:
>> http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?DCP_Template
>> which offers a template for a Change Proposal document, and some guidelines for the respective proposal process. Do give your comments, thoughts, etc.
>> Note that the template is mostly a collection of suggestions that I wanted to present (and open to collaborative editing). It is not about strict adherence, one can use parts of it, variations, etc., In fact as you can see, the template is not complete/finished, nor has to be. The parts with "?" are more particularly open for comments.
>>
>> Here is an example DCP:
>> http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?DCP_DefaultPrivateImports
>>
>> -- 
>> Bruno Medeiros - CS/E student
>> http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D
> 
> 
> *sigh*
> 
> Excuse me for being so pessimistic, Bruno. But this has all been suggested before, over and over and over again over the past few years.  What are you trying to accomplish?  Every six months or so another exuberant personality, not unlike yourself,  pops up in this newsgroup with a "hey, I've got a incredible idea!" and tries to guide the community into a new rash of "exceptional" suggestions for organizing proposals and managing a very inscrutable and unmanageable Walter.
> 
> It doesn't work, hasn't worked, and won't work -- believe me.  Has Walter backed you on this?  Do you think Walter will take out of his day to look at this list (not the first list by far, either)?  Are you serious? If not, what in the world are trying to do? If it makes you feel good, please realize that's all it's doing. Because it's likely to do absolutely nothing for anyone here or the promotion or improvement of D.
> 

"Managing Walter"? You incorrectly assumed these proposals where be made so that Walter would decide upon them, or even look at them. I'm fully aware that it most certainly will have little to zero impact on Walter. It was my mistake to not explicit mention that in my DCP post, but I had stated that before in other thread. Quote:
"[...] the wiki could be used as a repository for summaries of the current "discussion state" of design features/peeves/issues. [...]. Even if Walter doesn't pay attention to it (which is expected) it helps a bit to the community to know what is the current status, and the opinion of the rest of the community members."
from news://news.digitalmars.com:119/e3ae4v$2o1t$1@digitaldaemon.com .

> You are better off getting control of yourself, sitting down and putting all that restless energy to use documenting or programming D libraries. That would be much more effective in getting D going than what you are suggesting.  Leave the proposal suggestions for those that have even a smidgeon of a chance of getting Walter's attention.
> 
> Why am I being so harsh?  Mostly because you are becoming ruthlessly persistent in conveying your "wisdom" without making consideration for the current circumstance or your own standing here in the community; you still haven't proved your worth with real live D contributions beyond your prodigious number of postings.
> 
> I encourage you to start playing with D, write tutorials, convert libraries, exercise D for all it's worth.  Establish yourself as a D contributor! If you want to be a leader in the D community, prove yourself by setting a reliable and observable example of dedication (beyond mere postings to this newsgroup)!  Then come back and tell Walter and the community what needs to be done.
> 
> If you really want to see D progress, you'll have to move as much useful code to it as possible, and demonstrate to the outside programming community why D is so great.  That's where you will have much more influence. Because you just haven't developed that sort of influence in here yet.
> 

Again the notion that one's opinion is only valid according to the proportion of his contribution to D... This is just so downright silly, that I'm not sure I want to try to convince otherwise.
Suffice to say, if that was the case, then the opinions from the guys from the usenet C++ newsgroup would be worthless, as they contributed nothing to D. (Yet those guys, those wise guys, are the ones Walter pays most attention to.)

> Remember, Bruno, you are young, and your ideas are not new.  If this offends you, I'm sorry.  You are just much to vocal for your own good; and I think you need to be yanked down now again before you get yourself in over your head. It gets wearisome to see this happen over and over again.
> 
> -JJR


-- 
Bruno Medeiros - CS/E student
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D

In article <e9dkp4$pmo$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Bruno Medeiros says...

>
>"Managing Walter"? You incorrectly assumed these proposals where be made
>so that Walter would decide upon them, or even look at them. I'm fully
>aware that it most certainly will have little to zero impact on Walter.
>It was my mistake to not explicit mention that in my DCP post, but I had
>stated that before in other thread. Quote:
>"[...] the wiki could be used as a repository for summaries of the
>current "discussion state" of design features/peeves/issues. [...]. Even
>if Walter doesn't pay attention to it (which is expected) it helps a bit
>to the community to know what is the current status, and the opinion of
>the rest of the community members."
>from news://news.digitalmars.com:119/e3ae4v$2o1t$1@digitaldaemon.com .
>


Ah, fair enough. I give you that.  So you made your intention clear elsewhere. What good then are these masses of proposals and opinions if they contribute to no likely result?  I suppose it's just an opportunity for everybody to enjoy themselves.  Well, have fun, then.  But I'm sorry you feel the need to do that here since the perception of what it is designed to accomplish is entirely ambiguous.


>
>Again the notion that one's opinion is only valid according to the
>proportion of his contribution to D... This is just so downright silly,
>that I'm not sure I want to try to convince otherwise.
>Suffice to say, if that was the case, then the opinions from the guys
>from the usenet C++ newsgroup would be worthless, as they contributed
>nothing to D. (Yet those guys, those wise guys, are the ones Walter pays
>most attention to.)
>


You are correct... this has nothing to do with validity of opinion!  Read a little deeper.  It has to do with the value, maturity, and effect of opinion or proposal, as it comes from a certain source.

You make the assumption that I include everyone in the same category, in regards to whose opinions count.  I do not.  Do not try to generalize my case.  My recommendation was not to others.  It was to you, specifically.  I suggested that you would do well to help out in another way, since I believe your suggestions right now are not aiding D in any way. Please listen. You can contribute so much more effectively in other ways.

-JJR

Bruno Medeiros wrote:
> Ok, I was thinking of how to improve the way the community manages D language feature requests, change proposals, etc., and I have come forth with a idea I've mentioned before of using the Wiki to keep track of language proposals (called D Change Proposals?).

Kind of like this existing page?
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FeatureRequestList

Anyone is welcome to contribute to the FeatureRequestList and its subpages, but not many have (especially not recently).

(But I guess DCP sounds cooler anyway, right?)

-- 
jcc7

Justin C Calvarese wrote:
> Bruno Medeiros wrote:
>> Ok, I was thinking of how to improve the way the community manages D language feature requests, change proposals, etc., and I have come forth with a idea I've mentioned before of using the Wiki to keep track of language proposals (called D Change Proposals?).
> 
> Kind of like this existing page?
> http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FeatureRequestList
> 
> Anyone is welcome to contribute to the FeatureRequestList and its subpages, but not many have (especially not recently).
> 

Yes, it's like that, only with some additions:

* The requirement that people write a proper summary of the proposal (instead of just linking to NG discussions).
* Enabling voting/rating, which was also suggested in that page (but not implemented).

> (But I guess DCP sounds cooler anyway, right?)
> 

Well, I think maybe the name turned out to sound too formal for what it is.

-- 
Bruno Medeiros - CS/E student
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D

In article <e9gea2$i8q$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Bruno Medeiros says...
>
>Justin C Calvarese wrote:
>> Bruno Medeiros wrote:
>>> Ok, I was thinking of how to improve the way the community manages D language feature requests, change proposals, etc., and I have come forth with a idea I've mentioned before of using the Wiki to keep track of language proposals (called D Change Proposals?).
>> 
>> Kind of like this existing page? http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FeatureRequestList
>> 
>> Anyone is welcome to contribute to the FeatureRequestList and its subpages, but not many have (especially not recently).
>> 
>
>Yes, it's like that, only with some additions:
>
>* The requirement that people write a proper summary of the proposal (instead of just linking to NG discussions).

You can ask people to do something in a wiki entry, but you can't actually make them do anything. Unless you intend to police it. Well, maybe you do intend to enforce it.

jcc7

In article <e9gea2$i8q$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Bruno Medeiros says...
>
>Justin C Calvarese wrote:
>> Bruno Medeiros wrote:
>> (But I guess DCP sounds cooler anyway, right?)
>> 
>Well, I think maybe the name turned out to sound too formal for what it is.

It's not too late.  Why not DEP?  D Enhancement Proposals.  Or is that too much
a rip off of Python?  If so, then how about
DAP -- D Addition/Amendment Proposal
DIP -- D Improvement Proposal
DOP -- D Overhaul Proposal
DUP -- D ...uh ... Unencumberance Proposal :-)

You get the idea -- at least make it something with a vowel so you can pronounce it. Then it won't remind people of all those TPS reports they have to fill out at work.  :-)

--bb

jcc7 wrote:
> In article <e9gea2$i8q$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Bruno Medeiros says...
>> Justin C Calvarese wrote:
>>> Bruno Medeiros wrote:
>>>> Ok, I was thinking of how to improve the way the community manages D language feature requests, change proposals, etc., and I have come forth with a idea I've mentioned before of using the Wiki to keep track of language proposals (called D Change Proposals?).
>>> Kind of like this existing page?
>>> http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FeatureRequestList
>>>
>>> Anyone is welcome to contribute to the FeatureRequestList and its subpages, but not many have (especially not recently).
>>>
>> Yes, it's like that, only with some additions:
>>
>> * The requirement that people write a proper summary of the proposal (instead of just linking to NG discussions).
> 
> You can ask people to do something in a wiki entry, but you can't actually make
> them do anything. Unless you intend to police it. Well, maybe you do intend to
> enforce it.
> 
> jcc7

No, "requirement" wasn't the right word, more like "recommendation".

-- 
Bruno Medeiros - CS/E student
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D