One thing that just keeps churning in back of my mind is "how does Walter do it?"  Given the frantic pace of updates he must be devoting almost all his time to D.  But D must generate next to no revenue.  And selling DMC or EUP CDs can't be a huge profit center these days, either.  I doubt the google ad words on the Digitalmars pages generate much revenue either.

On the one hand I know it's really none of my business how DigitalMars stays afloat, but for both current and potential D users, I think knowing whether D is sufficiently well-funded to stay in it for the long-haul *is* relevant.

I don't even really care how it's funded, but it would be nice to hear a reassuring "there's nothing to worry about" from someone in the know.

--bb

Bill Baxter wrote:
> 
> I don't even really care how it's funded, but it would be nice to hear a reassuring "there's nothing to worry about" from someone in the know.

If Walter were having trouble paying the bills, I imagine he'd be spending more time on paying work.  As it is, I believe he's in a situation where this isn't a concern.


Sean

Sean Kelly wrote:
> Bill Baxter wrote:
>>
>> I don't even really care how it's funded, but it would be nice to hear a reassuring "there's nothing to worry about" from someone in the know.
> 
> If Walter were having trouble paying the bills, I imagine he'd be spending more time on paying work.  As it is, I believe he's in a situation where this isn't a concern.

As it is maybe, but what about the future?
DigitalMars must not be rolling in dough, at least, or else Walter could hire some helpers rather than doing everything himself.

One thing that concerns me is that the big corporate benefactor that has swooped in to help other open source languages may never arrive on the scene for D.  But maybe the big corporate benefactors like Google and O'Reilly haven't been as important to the continued evolution and success of Python/Perl/Ruby as I'm thinking.

--bb

Bill Baxter wrote:
> Sean Kelly wrote:
>> Bill Baxter wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't even really care how it's funded, but it would be nice to hear a reassuring "there's nothing to worry about" from someone in the know.
>>
>> If Walter were having trouble paying the bills, I imagine he'd be spending more time on paying work.  As it is, I believe he's in a situation where this isn't a concern.
> 
> As it is maybe, but what about the future?
> DigitalMars must not be rolling in dough, at least, or else Walter could hire some helpers rather than doing everything himself.
> 
> One thing that concerns me is that the big corporate benefactor that has swooped in to help other open source languages may never arrive on the scene for D.  But maybe the big corporate benefactors like Google and O'Reilly haven't been as important to the continued evolution and success of Python/Perl/Ruby as I'm thinking.
> 
> --bb


I think he'll do fine, perhaps better in some ways without such wealthy benefactors.  D has lasted this long against all odds: in fact, I think D has literally bucked the trends, considering it has only an individual backing it. As to his personal financial situation, I accept that as being his business, since he has never felt the need to share it :). One advantage to a lack of outside subsidizing is that D is not controlled by these external forces (at least, not that I know of :) ).

Mostly, I think D seems to depend on the fan element for it's viral effect, kind of a slow pervasive bubbling from the bottom up rather than coercion from the top (companies) down.  To me D represents another unusual and atypical movement much like Linux was for it's time.  D likely will follow a similar, albeit slow, growth curve.  I doubt that D is particularly comparable to any other "hot" language such that we can otherwise predict its outcome.

-JJR

John Reimer Wrote:
> One advantage to a lack of outside subsidizing is that D is not controlled by these external forces (at least, not that I know of :) ).

Rare and valuable in this day and age.

> Mostly, I think D seems to depend on the fan element for it's viral effect, kind of a slow pervasive bubbling from the bottom up rather than coercion from the top (companies) down.  To me D represents another unusual and atypical movement much like Linux was for it's time.  D likely will follow a similar, albeit slow, growth curve.  I doubt that D is particularly comparable to any other "hot" language such that we can otherwise predict its outcome.

My only major concern lies in that d isnt open source and is therefore bound to walter.  if he goes, so does D.

Maybe we should get life insurance on him?

dan wrote:

> My only major concern lies in that d isnt open source and is therefore bound to walter.  if he goes, so does D.
> 
> Maybe we should get life insurance on him?

Is there any reason (I'm thinking legal, mostly) why someone else couldn't in principle independently implement a D compiler? The D community is reasonably large and full of smart people, so I'm sure the talent exists. Right now the motivation for creating a third party compiler is low, but if Walter disappeared that might change.

I guess what I'm saying is that maybe the D community is already large enough to be self-sustaining.

Peter

Peter C. Chapin wrote:
> dan wrote:
> 
>> My only major concern lies in that d isnt open source and is therefore bound to walter.  if he goes, so does D.
>>
>> Maybe we should get life insurance on him?
> 
> Is there any reason (I'm thinking legal, mostly) why someone else
> couldn't in principle independently implement a D compiler? The D
> community is reasonably large and full of smart people, so I'm sure the
> talent exists. Right now the motivation for creating a third party
> compiler is low, but if Walter disappeared that might change.

An independent D compiler isn't a problem. There are even several in the works already.
The more likely problem is the D spec: it's copyrighted by Digital Mars, so only Digital Mars (and those it authorizes[1] to do so) may distribute it (and presumably nobody else may distribute modified versions). So until copyright runs out (unless Walter/Digital Mars transfers control of the spec over to some other person or organization[2]) the only option for continued evolution of the language may be a complete rewrite of the spec (perhaps based on the available compiler, but not on the current spec).


[1] I'm not sure if anyone else is currently authorized; even Tango (which has permission to redistribute DMD itself) seems to leave the spec out of their binary distributions that include DMD.

[2] In his testament, perhaps?

> I guess what I'm saying is that maybe the D community is already large
> enough to be self-sustaining.

Large enough? Quite possibly.
The legal issues mentioned above may be more problematic though, assuming the language is to continue to evolve.

dan wrote:
> John Reimer Wrote:
>> One advantage to a lack of outside subsidizing is that D is not controlled by these external forces (at least, not that I know of :) ).
> 
> Rare and valuable in this day and age.
> 
>> Mostly, I think D seems to depend on the fan element for it's viral effect, kind of a slow pervasive bubbling from the bottom up rather than coercion from the top (companies) down.  To me D represents another unusual and atypical movement much like Linux was for it's time.  D likely will follow a similar, albeit slow, growth curve.  I doubt that D is particularly comparable to any other "hot" language such that we can otherwise predict its outcome.
> 
> My only major concern lies in that d isnt open source and is therefore bound to walter.  if he goes, so does D.
> 
> Maybe we should get life insurance on him?


Life insurance?  Poor Walter. We're already talking about his demise. :(

Death is inevitable for all, so that does seem to be a more valid concern as far as D goes, I guess (in contrast to concerns about financial support).  But I still think there's little to worry about here since Walter has associates with a keen interest in D, and I wager he's "covered" in this area.  I doubt D will disappear.  I think what people are looking for are assurances from Walter, but I don't believe they are necessary.  The worst that could happen is that D's specifications will freeze for awhile. ;)

Overall, this seems to become awkward and unfeeling to worry about an abstract and lifeless entity (ie. D) which has little real worth compared to the designer himself.

At any rate, somebody will likely take up the baton: D seems to have become popular enough now. No, I don't think we have to be gloomy about D. :)

-JJR

Frits van Bommel wrote:
> Peter C. Chapin wrote:
>> dan wrote:
>>
>>> My only major concern lies in that d isnt open source and is therefore bound to walter.  if he goes, so does D.
>>>
>>> Maybe we should get life insurance on him?
>>
>> Is there any reason (I'm thinking legal, mostly) why someone else
>> couldn't in principle independently implement a D compiler? The D
>> community is reasonably large and full of smart people, so I'm sure the
>> talent exists. Right now the motivation for creating a third party
>> compiler is low, but if Walter disappeared that might change.
> 
> An independent D compiler isn't a problem. There are even several in the works already.
> The more likely problem is the D spec: it's copyrighted by Digital Mars, so only Digital Mars (and those it authorizes[1] to do so) may distribute it (and presumably nobody else may distribute modified versions). So until copyright runs out (unless Walter/Digital Mars transfers control of the spec over to some other person or organization[2]) the only option for continued evolution of the language may be a complete rewrite of the spec (perhaps based on the available compiler, but not on the current spec).
> 
> 
> [1] I'm not sure if anyone else is currently authorized; even Tango (which has permission to redistribute DMD itself) seems to leave the spec out of their binary distributions that include DMD.

Frankly, it's a topic we never broached with Walter.  We've simply been trying to keep the inclusion of Digital Mars stuff to a minimum as an act of good faith.


Sean

"Frits van Bommel" <fvbommel@REMwOVExCAPSs.nl> wrote in message news:fkdou8$1nmf$1@digitalmars.com...
> complete rewrite of the spec (perhaps based on the available compiler, but not on the current spec).

thanks for the laugh :)