I am an experienced C++ programmer who became interested in D only after the recent discussion on comp.lang.c++ between Walter Bright and various C++ experts regarding undefined or implementation defined areas of C++. I realized during reading that discussion that while I would not stop programming in C++ I was sympathetic to many of Mr. Bright's points regarding C++.

I have a basic initial suggestion, as I am persuing the D pdf dcument I downloaded in order to understand of what the language consisted. The basic suggestion regards documentation for D itself. I believe the most important thing for getting others to be interested in a new programming language is the unglamorous chore of presenting the documentation for that language to others. While the pdf documentation I am reading is adequately thorough, I have a few suggestions:

1) A link to the downloaded documentation for D should be almost the first thing a viewer should see when they click on the D portion of the Digital Mars web site. It should be front and center. I realize there is a separate Language link on the left hand side which takes me to an online set of pages which explain D and I realize that somewhere down on the initial page there is a line which reads "This document is available as a pdf" with a link on that final word, but I think this is still too indirect. The normal reaction to any new language is to download the documentation detailing that language so that it can be read and/or printed at the end-user's leisure.

2) Since D is highly related to C++ there should be a document for C++ programmers detailing the differences between D and C++, which again is downloadable almost immediately from the main web page of D. I did not find any such document although there is occasional mention of these diferences in the pdf document I downloaded.

3) There is evidently a version 2.0 and above of D. Perhaps it is not meant for anybody to become interested in this version who is just attempting to learn what D is about, but the complete lack of any documentation which I could find about this version and/or its difference from the 1.0 version is not a good thing.

The pdf document I am reading is a good technical document but I would rather, as an experienced C++ programmer, have read a downloadable document detailing the differences between D and C++ than having to wade through each section of the pdf document attempting to see what they are.

I realize that writing documentation is the chore which nearly every programmer hates but when one is creating a new computer language it is almost an absolute necessity if one wants to get others to try what one has created. So I hope the mild suggestions mentioned here will help the D community in their efforts to tell other interested programmers, especially C++ programmers, why they might consider using D.

Now I will continue to read on about D at my leisure, and see if I am interested in pursuing my initial interest in it. If I have any general suggestions about the language I hope they will be taken in the spirit of things intended to improve things rather than as an antagonism to the ideas presented there.

Edward Diener wrote:
> I am an experienced C++ programmer who became interested in D only after the recent discussion on comp.lang.c++ between Walter Bright and various C++ experts regarding undefined or implementation defined areas of C++. I realized during reading that discussion that while I would not stop programming in C++ I was sympathetic to many of Mr. Bright's points regarding C++.

Welcome!

> 2) Since D is highly related to C++ there should be a document for C++ programmers detailing the differences between D and C++, which again is downloadable almost immediately from the main web page of D. I did not find any such document although there is occasional mention of these diferences in the pdf document I downloaded.

I started putting together a porting document, which might give you some hints.  But it's definitely not the user friendly intro document you're after. It assumes you basically know how both C++ and D work.  But it might give some hints as to what the most painful differences are:
  http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?PortingFromCxx

I also just noticed this:
  http://www.digitalmars.com/d/2.0/cpptod.html

> 
> 3) There is evidently a version 2.0 and above of D. Perhaps it is not meant for anybody to become interested in this version who is just attempting to learn what D is about, but the complete lack of any documentation which I could find about this version and/or its difference from the 1.0 version is not a good thing.

We keep telling Walter this, but I suppose he's too busy to fix it. Congrats to you for figuring out what was going on!  Yes, 2.0 is still in flux.  Go that way only if you want bleeding edge, and don't mind your code breaking from time to time on updates.

--bb

Bill Baxter wrote:
> Edward Diener wrote:
>> I am an experienced C++ programmer who became interested in D only after the recent discussion on comp.lang.c++ between Walter Bright and various C++ experts regarding undefined or implementation defined areas of C++. I realized during reading that discussion that while I would not stop programming in C++ I was sympathetic to many of Mr. Bright's points regarding C++.
> 
> Welcome!
> 
>> 2) Since D is highly related to C++ there should be a document for C++ programmers detailing the differences between D and C++, which again is downloadable almost immediately from the main web page of D. I did not find any such document although there is occasional mention of these diferences in the pdf document I downloaded.
> 
> I started putting together a porting document, which might give you some hints.  But it's definitely not the user friendly intro document you're after. It assumes you basically know how both C++ and D work.  But it might give some hints as to what the most painful differences are:
>   http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?PortingFromCxx
> 
> I also just noticed this:
>   http://www.digitalmars.com/d/2.0/cpptod.html

I see now that one should click on the Comparisons... menu item to get what I want regarding the information a C++ programmer would need to understand D. Thanks for pointing this out.

> 
>>
>> 3) There is evidently a version 2.0 and above of D. Perhaps it is not meant for anybody to become interested in this version who is just attempting to learn what D is about, but the complete lack of any documentation which I could find about this version and/or its difference from the 1.0 version is not a good thing.
> 
> We keep telling Walter this, but I suppose he's too busy to fix it. Congrats to you for figuring out what was going on!  Yes, 2.0 is still in flux.  Go that way only if you want bleeding edge, and don't mind your code breaking from time to time on updates.

I will ignore 2.0 for now.

I will second Edward's suggestions. It also goes for the Tango site. I have spent time on both sites looking for documentation. I remember how happy I was when I finally discovered the link to the pdf reference material it was very well hidden but should be at the top of the very first page.

I have not been able to find any downloadable reference material in the D 2.0 section that is in pdf format. It would be very big help in finally switching to the 2.0 version although I know it is still in alpha or beta testing.

When visiting the Tango site, I had to download the reference manual (which was incomplete, can someone finish it please) in text format. I have been inserting the text files into my word processor and using copy and paste to get the graphics back in. And then I am also reformating it and will hopefully have a document I can convert to pdf.

I do know how boring and mind numbing documenting specification and reference's is since I have it in the clinical laboratory field in another life in my first career. But getting the reference material for both D and Tango in to a pdf format and in a place on the web sites that is easily accessible would go along way to help get others to adopt D as their language of choice.

Edward Diener Wrote:

> I am an experienced C++ programmer who became interested in D only after the recent discussion on comp.lang.c++ between Walter Bright and various C++ experts regarding undefined or implementation defined areas of C++. I realized during reading that discussion that while I would not stop programming in C++ I was sympathetic to many of Mr. Bright's points regarding C++.
> 
> I have a basic initial suggestion, as I am persuing the D pdf dcument I downloaded in order to understand of what the language consisted. The basic suggestion regards documentation for D itself. I believe the most important thing for getting others to be interested in a new programming language is the unglamorous chore of presenting the documentation for that language to others. While the pdf documentation I am reading is adequately thorough, I have a few suggestions:
> 
> 1) A link to the downloaded documentation for D should be almost the first thing a viewer should see when they click on the D portion of the Digital Mars web site. It should be front and center. I realize there is a separate Language link on the left hand side which takes me to an online set of pages which explain D and I realize that somewhere down on the initial page there is a line which reads "This document is available as a pdf" with a link on that final word, but I think this is still too indirect. The normal reaction to any new language is to download the documentation detailing that language so that it can be read and/or printed at the end-user's leisure.
> 
> 2) Since D is highly related to C++ there should be a document for C++ programmers detailing the differences between D and C++, which again is downloadable almost immediately from the main web page of D. I did not find any such document although there is occasional mention of these diferences in the pdf document I downloaded.
> 
> 3) There is evidently a version 2.0 and above of D. Perhaps it is not meant for anybody to become interested in this version who is just attempting to learn what D is about, but the complete lack of any documentation which I could find about this version and/or its difference from the 1.0 version is not a good thing.
> 
> The pdf document I am reading is a good technical document but I would rather, as an experienced C++ programmer, have read a downloadable document detailing the differences between D and C++ than having to wade through each section of the pdf document attempting to see what they are.
> 
> I realize that writing documentation is the chore which nearly every programmer hates but when one is creating a new computer language it is almost an absolute necessity if one wants to get others to try what one has created. So I hope the mild suggestions mentioned here will help the D community in their efforts to tell other interested programmers, especially C++ programmers, why they might consider using D.
> 
> Now I will continue to read on about D at my leisure, and see if I am interested in pursuing my initial interest in it. If I have any general suggestions about the language I hope they will be taken in the spirit of things intended to improve things rather than as an antagonism to the ideas presented there.

Larry wrote:
> I will second Edward's suggestions. It also goes for the Tango site. I have spent time on both sites looking for documentation. I remember how happy I was when I finally discovered the link to the pdf reference material it was very well hidden but should be at the top of the very first page.
> 
> I have not been able to find any downloadable reference material in the D 2.0 section that is in pdf format. It would be very big help in finally switching to the 2.0 version although I know it is still in alpha or beta testing.
> 
> When visiting the Tango site, I had to download the reference manual (which was incomplete, can someone finish it please) in text format. I have been inserting the text files into my word processor and using copy and paste to get the graphics back in. And then I am also reformating it and will hopefully have a document I can convert to pdf.
> 
> I do know how boring and mind numbing documenting specification and reference's is since I have it in the clinical laboratory field in another life in my first career. But getting the reference material for both D and Tango in to a pdf format and in a place on the web sites that is easily accessible would go along way to help get others to adopt D as their language of choice. 
> 
> Edward Diener Wrote:
> 


Yes, the Tango Reference manual really, really needs to be completed.  I am supposed to be contributing towards that goal but have been juggling several time consuming projects here and there.  Time to get back on track. :(

I've also been interested in making it into a chm and pdf file in the past.  This would be an important next step.  I think there have been a few requests for that.

-JJR

"Larry" <lawrence.hemsley@gmail.vom> wrote in message news:fnijfv$6go$1@digitalmars.com...
>I will second Edward's suggestions. It also goes for the Tango site. I have spent time on both sites looking for documentation. I remember how happy I was when I finally discovered the link to the pdf reference material it was very well hidden but should be at the top of the very first page.
>
> I have not been able to find any downloadable reference material in the D 2.0 section that is in pdf format. It would be very big help in finally switching to the 2.0 version although I know it is still in alpha or beta testing.
>
> When visiting the Tango site, I had to download the reference manual (which was incomplete, can someone finish it please) in text format. I have been inserting the text files into my word processor and using copy and paste to get the graphics back in. And then I am also reformating it and will hopefully have a document I can convert to pdf.
>
> I do know how boring and mind numbing documenting specification and reference's is since I have it in the clinical laboratory field in another life in my first career. But getting the reference material for both D and Tango in to a pdf format and in a place on the web sites that is easily accessible would go along way to help get others to adopt D as their language of choice.


I agree :)

Please forgive this indugence, but there is a book available on both D and Tango (also available as ebook PDF): http://dsource.org/projects/tango/wiki/LearnToTangoWithD

Kris wrote:
> "Larry" <lawrence.hemsley@gmail.vom> wrote in message news:fnijfv$6go$1@digitalmars.com...
>> I will second Edward's suggestions. It also goes for the Tango site. I have spent time on both sites looking for documentation. I remember how happy I was when I finally discovered the link to the pdf reference material it was very well hidden but should be at the top of the very first page.
>>
>> I have not been able to find any downloadable reference material in the D 2.0 section that is in pdf format. It would be very big help in finally switching to the 2.0 version although I know it is still in alpha or beta testing.
>>
>> When visiting the Tango site, I had to download the reference manual (which was incomplete, can someone finish it please) in text format. I have been inserting the text files into my word processor and using copy and paste to get the graphics back in. And then I am also reformating it and will hopefully have a document I can convert to pdf.
>>
>> I do know how boring and mind numbing documenting specification and reference's is since I have it in the clinical laboratory field in another life in my first career. But getting the reference material for both D and Tango in to a pdf format and in a place on the web sites that is easily accessible would go along way to help get others to adopt D as their language of choice.
> 
> 
> I agree :)
> 
> Please forgive this indugence, but there is a book available on both D and Tango (also available as ebook PDF): http://dsource.org/projects/tango/wiki/LearnToTangoWithD
> 
> 


Never!  We could never forgive such an indulgence! :D

Reply to Edward,
> I have a basic initial suggestion, as I am persuing the D pdf dcument
> I downloaded

forgive my ignorance: What PDF? (I just found it, but until now I didn't know there was one)

BTW, the zip file with DMD include the full HTML docs.

"John Reimer" <terminal.node@gmail.com> wrote in message news:fnipuf$knd$1@digitalmars.com...
> Kris wrote:
>> Please forgive this indugence, but there is a book available on both D and Tango (also available as ebook PDF): http://dsource.org/projects/tango/wiki/LearnToTangoWithD


> Never!  We could never forgive such an indulgence! :D


Well, in that case I might as well add that the book is almost dirt cheap, especially for those in Europe; less than 9 quid in the UK ;)

It's the only English language book on D, and worth parting with a few bucks for. Even just to get the two chapters written by Mike <G>  All proceeds from the book will be channeled into the Tango project, to the benefit of both Tango and the D community.

(Amazon USA notes that they're now in stock -- see link above)

Kris wrote:

>> Never!  We could never forgive such an indulgence! :D
> 
> 
> Well, in that case I might as well add that the book is almost dirt cheap, especially for those in Europe; less than 9 quid in the UK ;)
> 
> It's the only English language book on D, and worth parting with a few bucks for. Even just to get the two chapters written by Mike <G>  All proceeds from the book will be channeled into the Tango project, to the benefit of both Tango and the D community.
> 
> (Amazon USA notes that they're now in stock -- see link above) 
> 
> 


Lol!  That's better. :D

The hard-copies are now available? Great!

-JJR