On Fri, 20 Sep 2013 12:11:51 +1000
Manu <turkeyman@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 20 September 2013 00:25, H. S. Teoh <hsteoh@quickfur.ath.cx> wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 03:04:44PM +0200, Wyatt wrote: [...]
> > > Dolphin is pretty nice, though there are cases where Konqueror still runs circles around it. For example, if you want a horizontal split or more than one split.  Also, I don't think Dolphin has the file size view plugin, which is nice for finding hidden monsters in your ~.
> >
> > du ~ | sort -r -n | less
> >
> 
> This is exactly why linux is shit.
> 
> 
> :-)

It's exactly why those not fluent in Linux believe Linux is shit ;)

If all someone knows is HyperCard or AppleScript, D is going to look like shit. "It sucks because I don't understand it, because it's not at all like English!" When really, being so much different is part of what *allows* it to be so much better, to surpass the limitations of the more familiar models.

That said, there is a factor of learning curve and it is initially very intimidating.

On 20 September 2013 14:23, Nick Sabalausky < SeeWebsiteToContactMe@semitwist.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Sep 2013 12:11:51 +1000
> Manu <turkeyman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 20 September 2013 00:25, H. S. Teoh <hsteoh@quickfur.ath.cx> wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 03:04:44PM +0200, Wyatt wrote: [...]
> > > > Dolphin is pretty nice, though there are cases where Konqueror still runs circles around it. For example, if you want a horizontal split or more than one split.  Also, I don't think Dolphin has the file size view plugin, which is nice for finding hidden monsters in your ~.
> > >
> > > du ~ | sort -r -n | less
> > >
> >
> > This is exactly why linux is shit.
> >
> >
> > :-)
>
> It's exactly why those not fluent in Linux believe Linux is shit ;)
>
> If all someone knows is HyperCard or AppleScript, D is going to look like shit. "It sucks because I don't understand it, because it's not at all like English!" When really, being so much different is part of what *allows* it to be so much better, to surpass the limitations of the more familiar models.
>
> That said, there is a factor of learning curve and it is initially very intimidating.


When I was living in Finland, I NEVER heard a Finn go around saying "English is shit, Finnish is way better! You just don't understand it, you obviously need to take the time to learn it and then you'll see the light!". Funnily enough, they all learn English. This is so they can talk with... everybody else ;)

It might be fine for the few that know it, but the rest don't want to know
it, don't want to invest the time to learn it, and have no reason to do so.
This isn't a very good argument for why Linux is awesome, it's really just
evidence that Linux is completely inaccessible. I don't consider that a
positive attribute of basically anything.
I don't think there's any good reason for that line to make so little
sense. If the argument is that typing more characters is too hard and time
consuming, I'd then raise the question as to whether typing characters into
a shell is the best interface in the first place...?

Surely the amount of time invested into learning linux at that level, if rather invested in working on a productive AND user-friendly solution to your actual problem that the majority of people could also use... would that be a better use of time? (not only for yourself, but for everyone?)

I like the idea of Linux, I'd like it to succeed, but I think the key
problem with Linux is precisely this sort of thinking.
The users/developers of Linux hold it back. I think they erroneously think
it's awesome, and INTENTIONALLY write software with interfaces like this,
thereby deliberately isolating themselves from everyone else, and then
wonder why everyone else isn't interested...

Ubuntu has done a lot to help in recent years, but whenever I use it, I still can't get past the feeling that it's all just a facade. If any single microscopic little thing goes wrong, then you're back at square-1.

I had a video card driver problem the other day. The bundled auto-update
app failed, and totally broke my computer.
I had to download kernel source, and run some scripts to compile some sort
of shim that made the video driver compatible with my kernel to get it
working again... absolutely astounding.

On Fri, 2013-09-20 at 12:11 +1000, Manu wrote:
> On 20 September 2013 00:25, H. S. Teoh <hsteoh@quickfur.ath.cx> wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 03:04:44PM +0200, Wyatt wrote: [...]
> > > Dolphin is pretty nice, though there are cases where Konqueror still runs circles around it. For example, if you want a horizontal split or more than one split.  Also, I don't think Dolphin has the file size view plugin, which is nice for finding hidden monsters in your ~.
> >
> > du ~ | sort -r -n | less
> >
> 
> This is exactly why linux is shit.

s/linux/posix compliant operating system/

> 
> :-)

But remember everything you eat has almost certainly been grown using that exact substance.

-- 
Russel. ============================================================================= Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.winder@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder

On 20 September 2013 20:52, Russel Winder <russel@winder.org.uk> wrote:

> On Fri, 2013-09-20 at 12:11 +1000, Manu wrote:
> > On 20 September 2013 00:25, H. S. Teoh <hsteoh@quickfur.ath.cx> wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 03:04:44PM +0200, Wyatt wrote: [...]
> > > > Dolphin is pretty nice, though there are cases where Konqueror still runs circles around it. For example, if you want a horizontal split or more than one split.  Also, I don't think Dolphin has the file size view plugin, which is nice for finding hidden monsters in your ~.
> > >
> > > du ~ | sort -r -n | less
> > >
> >
> > This is exactly why linux is shit.
>
> s/linux/posix compliant operating system/
>
> >
> > :-)
>
> But remember everything you eat has almost certainly been grown using that exact substance.
>

I think you've gotta be pretty lucky these days if everything you eat is
actually grown in that substance...
Commercial agriculture isn't what it used to be...

On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 04:56:29PM +1000, Manu wrote:
> On 20 September 2013 14:23, Nick Sabalausky < SeeWebsiteToContactMe@semitwist.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 20 Sep 2013 12:11:51 +1000
> > Manu <turkeyman@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On 20 September 2013 00:25, H. S. Teoh <hsteoh@quickfur.ath.cx> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 03:04:44PM +0200, Wyatt wrote: [...]
> > > > > Dolphin is pretty nice, though there are cases where Konqueror still runs circles around it. For example, if you want a horizontal split or more than one split.  Also, I don't think Dolphin has the file size view plugin, which is nice for finding hidden monsters in your ~.
> > > >
> > > > du ~ | sort -r -n | less
> > > >
> > >
> > > This is exactly why linux is shit.
> > >
> > >
> > > :-)
> >
> > It's exactly why those not fluent in Linux believe Linux is shit ;)
[...]
> I don't think there's any good reason for that line to make so little sense. If the argument is that typing more characters is too hard and time consuming, I'd then raise the question as to whether typing characters into a shell is the best interface in the first place...?

There is no argument here, actually. The problem is really historical -- names like 'du' or 'grep' or 'awk' meant something back in who knows when, but they no longer mean anything to us today (well, those of us not old enough *cough*). If I were to reinvent Unix today, I'd choose better names for these things. But think about it, if the above line were instead written like this:

	diskUsage $HOME | sort --reverse --numeric | pager

it would make so much more sense, wouldn't it? So the "nonsensical" part is really just in the poor choice of naming, not an inherent weakness of the interface.


[...]
> I had a video card driver problem the other day. The bundled auto-update
> app failed, and totally broke my computer.
> I had to download kernel source, and run some scripts to compile some sort
> of shim that made the video driver compatible with my kernel to get it
> working again... absolutely astounding.

Uh... you do realize that this is because Linux actually *lets* you fix things? If something like this happened on Windows, the only real solution is to nuke the system from orbit and start from ground zero again (i.e. reinstall). One can hardly expect that repairing a broken car engine should require no thought.

Speaking of which, I managed to totally break my computer last night / this morning too. Well, actually, it was already broken 'cos I upgraded udev to a version incompatible with my kernel (custom-built, so it's my own fault :-P), but the hardy little thing just kept going. It was causing subtle breakages like my printer mysteriously failing to work, and when I finally figured out the problem, I downloaded a new kernel and recompiled it. Only to forget that /vmlinuz was still pointing to the old kernel (I didn't know this until later), so when I rebooted, it dumped me in single-user mode with *nothing* under /dev. Since I have /usr linked to a different mount point, and the mount failed (it couldn't find /dev/sd*), I had only a barely working shell (nothing in /usr/bin, etc., was accessible). No internet access either (eth0 couldn't be found -- anything requiring anything in /dev didn't work 'cos udev was dead).

Then I figured that I needed to mknod /dev/sd* so that I can mount my main filesystem and at least begin to recover the system, but I didn't remember what major/minor numbers to use. After poking around a bit (and the whole point of this dreary tale is to make the point that even during catastrophic failure, there is *still* a way to fix things... I couldn't even begin to imagine what I'd do if Windows broke on me like this -- since the GUI wouldn't even start, there'd be no way at all to recover), I stumbled upon a lucky break: /proc/partitions lists major/minor numbers and conveniently maps them to hard drive partitions. A few mknod's later, my main FS was back up, and enough was functional that I could actually recompile the kernel.  That turned out to be unnecessary, though, because the mistake was in the /vmlinuz symlink, not in the kernel itself.

Once I found that, the fix was trivial, and now I'm back in business. :-P

The thing that a lot of people don't seem to realize is that even system utilities and upgrade apps are written by people, and therefore prone to stupid mistakes. Under such circumstances, what you need is the ability to get under the hood and fix things when they go wrong... not to have the hood welded shut and have only OS reinstallation as a recourse. Because of that, I'd still prefer Linux with all its quirks than Windows with all of its perfections, because on Linux I at least have a fighting chance to fix stuff that breaks (as they inevitably will, regardless of OS), whereas on Windows the only real recourse is the big red button.


T

-- 
My program has no bugs! Only undocumented features...

On Friday, 20 September 2013 at 11:35:54 UTC, Manu wrote:
> On 20 September 2013 20:52, Russel Winder <russel@winder.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 2013-09-20 at 12:11 +1000, Manu wrote:
>> > On 20 September 2013 00:25, H. S. Teoh <hsteoh@quickfur.ath.cx> wrote:
>> >
>> > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 03:04:44PM +0200, Wyatt wrote:
>> > > [...]
>> > > > Dolphin is pretty nice, though there are cases where Konqueror still
>> > > > runs circles around it. For example, if you want a horizontal split
>> > > > or more than one split.  Also, I don't think Dolphin has the file
>> > > > size view plugin, which is nice for finding hidden monsters in your
>> > > > ~.
>> > >
>> > > du ~ | sort -r -n | less
>> > >
>> >
>> > This is exactly why linux is shit.
>>
>> s/linux/posix compliant operating system/
>>
>> >
>> > :-)
>>
>> But remember everything you eat has almost certainly been grown using
>> that exact substance.
>>
>
> I think you've gotta be pretty lucky these days if everything you eat is
> actually grown in that substance...
> Commercial agriculture isn't what it used to be...

Here in Germany, there are always lot of discussions about the
current state of affairs.

On Friday, 20 September 2013 at 12:16:39 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> There is no argument here, actually. The problem is really historical -- names like 'du' or 'grep' or 'awk' meant
> something back in who knows  when, but they no longer mean
> anything to us today (well, those of us not old enough *cough*).

heh, though if you're inundated enough, these words take on a meaning of their own.

One time, I said "kill(1) the process" then went on to explain what kill is... and a person replied "you don't have to be so condescending, we know what kill means."

But, when writing it, I was still thinking kill is this foreign language and thus needed a definition for the newbies, in the same sense that grep would. I forgot 'kill' has a perfectly relevant meaning in everyday English....

Though I probably could have defended myself by retorting with kill -HUP. No, that doesn't terminate it, that makes it reread its configuration file. See, kill(1) just sends a signal. What's HUP mean? Hang up! It is sent when your terminal disconnects because that was literally hanging up the phone back in the day.

"but then why does that make it reread its config file"

lol


> 	diskUsage $HOME | sort --reverse --numeric | pager

starting to look like Microsoft Powershell!

Interestingly though, powershell offers a lot of short, unix style aliases though. They know our habits can be hard to break.


> Uh... you do realize that this is because Linux actually *lets* you fix things?

so does Windows.... it is different, things like safe mode or the recovery console, but you can do it if you know how.

Though Windows takes more care to avoid these mistakes in the first place too.

On Friday, 20 September 2013 at 12:16:39 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> Uh... you do realize that this is because Linux actually *lets* you fix
> things? If something like this happened on Windows, the only real
> solution is to nuke the system from orbit and start from ground zero
> again (i.e. reinstall). One can hardly expect that repairing a broken
> car engine should require no thought.

When was the last time you used Windows? Since Vista, if a graphics driver crashes, I usually get a black screen for few seconds, then a nice window saying "The GPU driver has crashed, windows has restarted it". If it really breaks, it's a matter of going into Safe Mode and installing the driver again. But overall, Windows is almost uncrashable as long as you don't have a defective device.

On Linux? hah, bad driver will lock you out of the system, installations regularly break. Closing the system? Oh let me just flash random gibberish that looks like memory corruption, then some log messages where it's "FATAL ERROR" every third line. No thanks, I prefer my stable system.

On Friday, 20 September 2013 at 14:05:20 UTC, JN wrote:
>
> On Linux? hah, bad driver will lock you out of the system, installations regularly break. Closing the system? Oh let me just flash random gibberish that looks like memory corruption, then some log messages where it's "FATAL ERROR" every third line. No thanks, I prefer my stable system.

You sound like a Fedora user (in which case, you have my condolences).

On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 04:05:19PM +0200, JN wrote:
> On Friday, 20 September 2013 at 12:16:39 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> >Uh... you do realize that this is because Linux actually *lets* you fix things? If something like this happened on Windows, the only real solution is to nuke the system from orbit and start from ground zero again (i.e. reinstall). One can hardly expect that repairing a broken car engine should require no thought.
> 
> When was the last time you used Windows? Since Vista,

I haven't touched Windows since 98, so my experience is probably biased. :)


> if a graphics driver crashes, I usually get a black screen for few seconds, then a nice window

Stop right there. When the graphics driver crashes, no window can be displayed...


> saying "The GPU driver has crashed, windows has restarted it". If it really breaks, it's a matter of going into Safe Mode and installing the driver again. But overall, Windows is almost uncrashable as long as you don't have a defective device.

Windows is also unusable without a graphics mode to begin with.


> On Linux? hah, bad driver will lock you out of the system,

Ever heard of single-user mode? It's the same thing as "Safe Mode" (a funny name, makes me think the system is normally unsafe), except that it actually works when your graphics card doesn't work *at all*. Windows' reliance on GUIs makes it almost impossible to fix when something is wrong with the graphics adapter.


> installations regularly break. Closing the system? Oh let me just flash random gibberish that looks like memory corruption, then some log messages where it's "FATAL ERROR" every third line. No thanks, I prefer my stable system.

Never seen these problems before in the 15+ years I've been using Linux. You must have been using a defective distro. ;-)

OTOH, I *rather* know about these so-called "fatal errors" (and fix them!) than to live in utopic ignorance of the fact that something might be wrong, all the while thinking that I'm using a "stable" system... Maybe most people like to hide from problems and sweep them under the carpet, but I prefer to be informed, even if it looks ugly on the screen. But hey, each to his own.


T

-- 
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- Anonymous