For me, it's not about speed, it's about push vs pull.  A forum that I have to actively go to to find out if there's new material is wasteful.  I already go to my mail client to find pushed material.. and it's incrementally much easier for me to subscribe to a mailing list than anything else.  That's exactly why the first thing I did when joining the D community was to setup the nntp <--> mail bridges.  Any use of forums by me would require an automatic email gateway.

Just my 2 cents,
Brad

On Tue, 9 Dec 2008, Daniel White wrote:

> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 17:14:32 -0500
> From: Daniel White <twinbee42@skytopia.com>
> Reply-To: digitalmars.D <digitalmars-d@puremagic.com>
> To: digitalmars-d@puremagic.com
> Newsgroups: digitalmars.D
> Subject: Re: More phpBB like forum?
> 
> Hi Derek,
> I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, but if there were
> a forum which was very, very fast (much faster than phpBB,
> actually let's say near instant) for posting/navigation, and also
> was more economical in space (it's rarely said, but most standard
> forums eat up 2 or 3 lines of real estate per thread!), could you
> potentially prefer forums? It's not like these problems are
> intrinsic to forums per se.
> 
> In other words, is it not conceivable that most of the primary advantages of nntp could be transferred over, by looking, and almost acting like nntp, but with a more centralized system that forums offer?
> 
> Dan
> Derek Parnell Wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 09 Dec 2008 15:25:24 -0500, Daniel White wrote:
> > 
> > > Sean Kelly Wrote:
> > > 
> > >> I think there must be a generation gap here.  The first thing look for is a newsgroup dedicated to a subject.  After that, a mailing list.  I have basically no interest in web forums.
> > 
> > 
> > > There must be forums out there that feel faster than say, phpBB. But in any case, the advantages that forums in general have over newsgroups (many of which have been mentioned in this thread) seem hard to ignore.
> > 
> > I am also a person that dislikes using web-based forums. If one is established, it would hope that posting to it would also automatically post to the nttp server and visa versa. I realize that many people like web-based forums, but I have always found them to be be awkward, slow, and inconvenient. A good nttp reader is not hard to find. I use 40tude-dialog which enables me to see the posts as either flat or threaded at my pleasure.
> > 
> > -- 
> > Derek Parnell
> > Melbourne, Australia
> > skype: derek.j.parnell
> 

On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 01:37:00 +0300, Brad Roberts <braddr@bellevue.puremagic.com> wrote:

> For me, it's not about speed, it's about push vs pull.  A forum that I
> have to actively go to to find out if there's new material is wasteful.  I
> already go to my mail client to find pushed material.. and it's
> incrementally much easier for me to subscribe to a mailing list than
> anything else.  That's exactly why the first thing I did when joining the
> D community was to setup the nntp <--> mail bridges.  Any use of forums by
> me would require an automatic email gateway.
>
> Just my 2 cents,
> Brad
>

For those of us who read all the messages that enter this newsgroup NNTP is more useful, no one argues this.

But those users who visit digitalmars.D just to know if there are any interesting topics discussed or to ask a question once in a while prefer traditional web-based interface. In fact, these newsgroup have great amount of useful information, but you have to fetch all the messages for doing a search over them by a keyword (my messages cache is about 800Mb!). This is hardly possible for a newcomer. OTOH, any decent forum has a search functionality built-in.

I believe that both should coexist, but a better integration between them is needed for sure.

Reply to Daniel,

>> and - the big one for me - remote state
>> 
> Is it just me, or can't this be achieved by going to the "Web-New"
> section at:
> http://www.digitalmars.com/webnews/newsgroups.php?search_txt=&group=di
> gitalmars.D
> 
> This is better than what I've seen before, as it's threaded properly.
> 
> Dan
> 

irconic as IIRC most threads that get broken here are a result of that interface.

Hi Brad,
Good point I guess. While it's nice to have centralization for a forum's
posts, the kind of centralization you're talking about is extracting from
potentially multiple sites, and going to your inbox.

I suppose the only way to get the best of these worlds is for a system to combine all wanted forums into one (personalized) online dynamic mega-forum. Something like Google Reader maybe?

+speed, +1 thin line per (expandable) thread = bliss. There ya go,
the perfect forum/board/list/newsgroup ;) Sigh...

Dan



Brad Roberts Wrote:

> For me, it's not about speed, it's about push vs pull.  A forum that I have to actively go to to find out if there's new material is wasteful.  I already go to my mail client to find pushed material.. and it's incrementally much easier for me to subscribe to a mailing list than anything else.  That's exactly why the first thing I did when joining the D community was to setup the nntp <--> mail bridges.  Any use of forums by me would require an automatic email gateway.
> 
> Just my 2 cents,
> Brad
> 
> On Tue, 9 Dec 2008, Daniel White wrote:
> 
> > Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 17:14:32 -0500
> > From: Daniel White <twinbee42@skytopia.com>
> > Reply-To: digitalmars.D <digitalmars-d@puremagic.com>
> > To: digitalmars-d@puremagic.com
> > Newsgroups: digitalmars.D
> > Subject: Re: More phpBB like forum?
> > 
> > Hi Derek,
> > I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, but if there were
> > a forum which was very, very fast (much faster than phpBB,
> > actually let's say near instant) for posting/navigation, and also
> > was more economical in space (it's rarely said, but most standard
> > forums eat up 2 or 3 lines of real estate per thread!), could you
> > potentially prefer forums? It's not like these problems are
> > intrinsic to forums per se.
> > 
> > In other words, is it not conceivable that most of the primary advantages of nntp could be transferred over, by looking, and almost acting like nntp, but with a more centralized system that forums offer?
> > 
> > Dan
> > Derek Parnell Wrote:
> > 
> > > On Tue, 09 Dec 2008 15:25:24 -0500, Daniel White wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Sean Kelly Wrote:
> > > > 
> > > >> I think there must be a generation gap here.  The first thing look for is a newsgroup dedicated to a subject.  After that, a mailing list.  I have basically no interest in web forums.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > There must be forums out there that feel faster than say, phpBB. But in any case, the advantages that forums in general have over newsgroups (many of which have been mentioned in this thread) seem hard to ignore.
> > > 
> > > I am also a person that dislikes using web-based forums. If one is established, it would hope that posting to it would also automatically post to the nttp server and visa versa. I realize that many people like web-based forums, but I have always found them to be be awkward, slow, and inconvenient. A good nttp reader is not hard to find. I use 40tude-dialog which enables me to see the posts as either flat or threaded at my pleasure.
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > Derek Parnell
> > > Melbourne, Australia
> > > skype: derek.j.parnell
> > 

Reply to Denis,

> On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 01:37:00 +0300, Brad Roberts
> <braddr@bellevue.puremagic.com> wrote:
> 
>> For me, it's not about speed, it's about push vs pull.  A forum that I

Oh, Yes!! A system that doesn't provide a way to get a one stop shop for everything I'm looking at looses big time in my book. Something that informs me when new stuff shows up is even better.

>> have to actively go to to find out if there's new material is wasteful.

> For those of us who read all the messages that enter this newsgroup
> NNTP is more useful, no one argues this.
>

<nod/>

> but you have to fetch all the
> messages for doing a search over them by a keyword (my messages cache
> is about 800Mb!).

That's all? Real men have >2GB of posts! :b

On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 5:34 PM, Daniel White <twinbee42@skytopia.com> wrote:
>> and - the big one for me - remote state
>
> Is it just me, or can't this be achieved by going to the "Web-New"
> section at:
> http://www.digitalmars.com/webnews/newsgroups.php?search_txt=&group=digitalmars.D
>
> This is better than what I've seen before, as it's threaded properly.

Not at all what I'm looking for.  Basically all I want out of a "public discussion area" interface (whatever it is) is that I can see what messages I haven't yet read.  The web-news interface does not do that.

The other problem with the web-news interface is that it's a piece of shit.  It breaks threading, it doesn't obey many RFCs, the interface itself is terrible (as someone, maybe you, mentioned, it doesn't thread entire conversations, only a given number of posts), and it's just broken in some areas.  For example, if you are on any board other than digitalmars.D, clicking replies _does not work_ as it takes you to the "right" message ID on the *wrong board*.

Also, stop top-posting, unless you want to feel the wrath of one of the people who feels it's their moral obligation to berate those who top-post.  (top-posting is putting the quoted post after your own, if you didn't know already.)

On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 6:00 PM, Daniel White <twinbee42@skytopia.com> wrote:
> Hi Brad,
> Good point I guess. While it's nice to have centralization for a forum's
> posts, the kind of centralization you're talking about is extracting from
> potentially multiple sites, and going to your inbox.
>
> I suppose the only way to get the best of these worlds is for a system to combine all wanted forums into one (personalized) online dynamic mega-forum. Something like Google Reader maybe?
>
> +speed, +1 thin line per (expandable) thread = bliss. There ya go,
> the perfect forum/board/list/newsgroup ;) Sigh...

Google Groups does this already, but Walter does not want to have the digitalmars news server indexed by it for fear of spam.

Reply to Jarrett,


> Google Groups does this already, but Walter does not want to have the
> digitalmars news server indexed by it for fear of spam.
> 

I'll trust him on that one seeing as more spam gets through my spam filters in a month than I've seen on the NG,... ever

On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 02:04:16 +0300, BCS <ao@pathlink.com> wrote:

> Reply to Denis,
>
>> but you have to fetch all the
>> messages for doing a search over them by a keyword (my messages cache
>> is about 800Mb!).
>
> That's all? Real men have >2GB of posts! :b
>
>

Here is a screenshot with some statistics to prove myself:
http://tatarlar.rork.ru/stuff/printscreen_256.png

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 8:13 AM, Jarrett Billingsley <jarrett.billingsley@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 6:00 PM, Daniel White <twinbee42@skytopia.com> wrote:
>> Hi Brad,
>> Good point I guess. While it's nice to have centralization for a forum's
>> posts, the kind of centralization you're talking about is extracting from
>> potentially multiple sites, and going to your inbox.
>>
>> I suppose the only way to get the best of these worlds is for a system to combine all wanted forums into one (personalized) online dynamic mega-forum. Something like Google Reader maybe?
>>
>> +speed, +1 thin line per (expandable) thread = bliss. There ya go,
>> the perfect forum/board/list/newsgroup ;) Sigh...
>
> Google Groups does this already, but Walter does not want to have the digitalmars news server indexed by it for fear of spam.

More than that, there's the little problem that Google is apparently not interested in indexing newsgroups that aren't on standard Usenet servers.

--bb