On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 8:20 PM, Jarrett Billingsley <jarrett.billingsley@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 7:29 PM, Bill Baxter <wbaxter@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Ah, didn't notice because gmail hid your response inside a "click here to see quoted message".
>
> It does seem to have that bad habit, doesn't it.
>

Er, I hope you don't take it the wrong way - I use GMail and the mailing lists too, and I've missed my fair share of replies for the same reason.

Jarrett Billingsley Wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 2:17 PM, Michael P. <baseball.mjp@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Okay, so right now, I'm making a small game(Mario) using DAllegro. I use build, and every time, I have to type this in to compile my progress:
> >
> > build mario alleg.lib
> >
> > Now, I know it's not a lot of typing. But considering I type mario wrong every so often, and I generally want to execute it after, assuming there is not compiler errors, it takes time.
> > In a .bat file right now, I have this:
> >
> > build mario alleg.lib
> > mario
> 
> build mario alleg.lib && mario

Okay, thanks, that worked like I wanted it to.
-Michael P.

Tim M wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 08:17:17 +1300, Michael P. <baseball.mjp@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Okay, so right now, I'm making a small game(Mario) using DAllegro. I use build, and every time, I have to type this in to compile my progress:
>>
>> build mario alleg.lib
>>
>> Now, I know it's not a lot of typing. But considering I type mario wrong every so often, and I generally want to execute it after, assuming there is not compiler errors, it takes time.
>> In a .bat file right now, I have this:
>>
>> build mario alleg.lib
>> mario
>>
>> But, mario will execute even if there are errors found by dmd.
>> Is there anything that I can use to see if errors were found, and if there isn't, execute it, and if there is, don't execute it?
>> DMD1.036, Windows XP, Build/Bud 3.04
> 
> 
> I thought everyone used dsss with d now. http://dsource.org/projects/dsss.
No way! On Windows, bud is much better. dsss can't build dlls, for example, which is a blocker for me. It also seems to be based around the flawed concept that you have a small number of build configurations.

Hello Don,

> Tim M wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 08:17:17 +1300, Michael P.
>> <baseball.mjp@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Okay, so right now, I'm making a small game(Mario) using DAllegro. I
>>> use build, and every time, I have to type this in to compile my
>>> progress:
>>> 
>>> build mario alleg.lib
>>> 
>>> Now, I know it's not a lot of typing. But considering I type mario
>>> wrong every so often, and I generally want to execute it after,
>>> assuming there is not compiler errors, it takes time.
>>> In a .bat file right now, I have this:
>>> build mario alleg.lib
>>> mario
>>> But, mario will execute even if there are errors found by dmd.
>>> Is there anything that I can use to see if errors were found, and if
>>> there isn't, execute it, and if there is, don't execute it?
>>> DMD1.036, Windows XP, Build/Bud 3.04
>> I thought everyone used dsss with d now.
>> http://dsource.org/projects/dsss.
>> 
> No way! On Windows, bud is much better. dsss can't build dlls, for
> example, which is a blocker for me. It also seems to be based around
> the flawed concept that you have a small number of build
> configurations.
> 


Yes, I think bud is still quite good on windows (and faster than dsss), even though I don't use it.  But there's no replacing dsss on linux at the moment. It's nice to have the cross-platform option of dsss on win32 too.

That said, if bud worked (easily) on linux, I might actually go back to using it again, since dsss doesn't seem to be going anywhere and recent releases have been getting slower and bulkier (possibly due to the combined effect of recent dmd releases). :-(

-JJR

On 02.01.2009 22:21, Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 2:17 PM, Michael P.<baseball.mjp@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>  Okay, so right now, I'm making a small game(Mario) using DAllegro. I use build, and every time, I have to type this in to compile my progress:
>>
>>  build mario alleg.lib
>>
>>  Now, I know it's not a lot of typing. But considering I type mario wrong every so often, and I generally want to execute it after, assuming there is not compiler errors, it takes time.

Maybe you know this, but here goes. You can just press the up and down arrow keys to access command history.  Or F7 for a list.  make sure you use cmd.exe, not command.com.

>>  In a .bat file right now, I have this:
>>
>>  build mario alleg.lib
>>  mario
>
> build mario alleg.lib&&  mario

build supports this directly:
build mario alleg.lib -exec

torhu Wrote:

> On 02.01.2009 22:21, Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
> > On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 2:17 PM, Michael P.<baseball.mjp@gmail.com>  wrote:
> >>  Okay, so right now, I'm making a small game(Mario) using DAllegro. I use build, and every time, I have to type this in to compile my progress:
> >>
> >>  build mario alleg.lib
> >>
> >>  Now, I know it's not a lot of typing. But considering I type mario wrong every so often, and I generally want to execute it after, assuming there is not compiler errors, it takes time.
> 
> Maybe you know this, but here goes. You can just press the up and down arrow keys to access command history.  Or F7 for a list.  make sure you use cmd.exe, not command.com.
> 
> >>  In a .bat file right now, I have this:
> >>
> >>  build mario alleg.lib
> >>  mario
> >
> > build mario alleg.lib&&  mario
> 
> build supports this directly:
> build mario alleg.lib -exec

I don't think I could do that because the path has spaces in it. I've tried it before with other programs.

> No way! On Windows, bud is much better. dsss can't build dlls, for example, which is a blocker for me. It also seems to be based around the flawed concept that you have a small number of build configurations.


GC'd memory and DLL just don't go well together. I use C++ for my dlls but D for the main apps now. It's just about ok for single threaded. Most of the time I have to write dlls for existsing apps that I have no source for so thats why I can't use ddl either.

On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 01:40:03 +1300, John Reimer <terminal.node@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello Don,
>
>> Tim M wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 08:17:17 +1300, Michael P.
>>> <baseball.mjp@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Okay, so right now, I'm making a small game(Mario) using DAllegro. I
>>>> use build, and every time, I have to type this in to compile my
>>>> progress:
>>>>  build mario alleg.lib
>>>>  Now, I know it's not a lot of typing. But considering I type mario
>>>> wrong every so often, and I generally want to execute it after,
>>>> assuming there is not compiler errors, it takes time.
>>>> In a .bat file right now, I have this:
>>>> build mario alleg.lib
>>>> mario
>>>> But, mario will execute even if there are errors found by dmd.
>>>> Is there anything that I can use to see if errors were found, and if
>>>> there isn't, execute it, and if there is, don't execute it?
>>>> DMD1.036, Windows XP, Build/Bud 3.04
>>> I thought everyone used dsss with d now.
>>> http://dsource.org/projects/dsss.
>>>
>> No way! On Windows, bud is much better. dsss can't build dlls, for
>> example, which is a blocker for me. It also seems to be based around
>> the flawed concept that you have a small number of build
>> configurations.
>>
>
>
> Yes, I think bud is still quite good on windows (and faster than dsss), even though I don't use it.  But there's no replacing dsss on linux at the moment. It's nice to have the cross-platform option of dsss on win32 too.
>
> That said, if bud worked (easily) on linux, I might actually go back to using it again, since dsss doesn't seem to be going anywhere and recent releases have been getting slower and bulkier (possibly due to the combined effect of recent dmd releases). :-(
>
> -JJR
>
>

Could you both explain a bit more about this as dsss says it is based on rebuild and rebuild is based on bud. So I though that dsss > rebuild > bud.

On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 03:44:05 +0300, Tim M <a@b.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 01:40:03 +1300, John Reimer <terminal.node@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello Don,
>>
>>> Tim M wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 08:17:17 +1300, Michael P.
>>>> <baseball.mjp@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Okay, so right now, I'm making a small game(Mario) using DAllegro. I
>>>>> use build, and every time, I have to type this in to compile my
>>>>> progress:
>>>>>  build mario alleg.lib
>>>>>  Now, I know it's not a lot of typing. But considering I type mario
>>>>> wrong every so often, and I generally want to execute it after,
>>>>> assuming there is not compiler errors, it takes time.
>>>>> In a .bat file right now, I have this:
>>>>> build mario alleg.lib
>>>>> mario
>>>>> But, mario will execute even if there are errors found by dmd.
>>>>> Is there anything that I can use to see if errors were found, and if
>>>>> there isn't, execute it, and if there is, don't execute it?
>>>>> DMD1.036, Windows XP, Build/Bud 3.04
>>>> I thought everyone used dsss with d now.
>>>> http://dsource.org/projects/dsss.
>>>>
>>> No way! On Windows, bud is much better. dsss can't build dlls, for
>>> example, which is a blocker for me. It also seems to be based around
>>> the flawed concept that you have a small number of build
>>> configurations.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, I think bud is still quite good on windows (and faster than dsss), even though I don't use it.  But there's no replacing dsss on linux at the moment. It's nice to have the cross-platform option of dsss on win32 too.
>>
>> That said, if bud worked (easily) on linux, I might actually go back to using it again, since dsss doesn't seem to be going anywhere and recent releases have been getting slower and bulkier (possibly due to the combined effect of recent dmd releases). :-(
>>
>> -JJR
>>
>>
>
> Could you both explain a bit more about this as dsss says it is based on rebuild and rebuild is based on bud. So I though that dsss > rebuild > bud.

Don't confuse 'build' (which is a second name of bud) and 'rebuild' (part of dsss). They are unrelated.

Hello tim,

> On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 01:40:03 +1300, John Reimer
> <terminal.node@gmail.com>  wrote:
> 
>> Hello Don,
>> 
>>> Tim M wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 08:17:17 +1300, Michael P.
>>>> <baseball.mjp@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Okay, so right now, I'm making a small game(Mario) using DAllegro.
>>>>> I
>>>>> use build, and every time, I have to type this in to compile my
>>>>> progress:
>>>>> build mario alleg.lib
>>>>> Now, I know it's not a lot of typing. But considering I type mario
>>>>> wrong every so often, and I generally want to execute it after,
>>>>> assuming there is not compiler errors, it takes time.
>>>>> In a .bat file right now, I have this:
>>>>> build mario alleg.lib
>>>>> mario
>>>>> But, mario will execute even if there are errors found by dmd.
>>>>> Is there anything that I can use to see if errors were found, and
>>>>> if
>>>>> there isn't, execute it, and if there is, don't execute it?
>>>>> DMD1.036, Windows XP, Build/Bud 3.04
>>>> I thought everyone used dsss with d now.
>>>> http://dsource.org/projects/dsss.
>>> No way! On Windows, bud is much better. dsss can't build dlls, for
>>> example, which is a blocker for me. It also seems to be based around
>>> the flawed concept that you have a small number of build
>>> configurations.
>>> 
>> Yes, I think bud is still quite good on windows (and faster than
>> dsss),  even though I don't use it.  But there's no replacing dsss on
>> linux at  the moment. It's nice to have the cross-platform option of
>> dsss on win32  too.
>> 
>> That said, if bud worked (easily) on linux, I might actually go back
>> to  using it again, since dsss doesn't seem to be going anywhere and
>> recent  releases have been getting slower and bulkier (possibly due
>> to the  combined effect of recent dmd releases). :-(
>> 
>> -JJR
>> 
> Could you both explain a bit more about this as dsss says it is based
> on  rebuild and rebuild is based on bud. So I though that dsss >
> rebuild > bud.
> 


Here's a little history:

Bud (aka build) is a utility originally developed and still (I think) maintained by Derek Parnell.  Derek developed it (now probably beyond original recognition) from a tiny tool called dmake (see  http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?Dmake) that was offered to the community around 2004 by Helmut Leitner (who doesn't appear to hang around D much anymore even though he seems to still maintain the wiki4d site).  

dmake, in turn, borrowed significantly from Burton Radons' D tool called 'digc,' which was originally part of the very first significant D GUI project called dig (see http://www.opend.org/dig/index.html).  This was way back circa 2003, I think.  Burton, a prolific and guru-class D programmer (who has had a fair bit of influence on the D language itself), still pops in here now and again just to unsettle things with his clever D creations that he apparently still works on in secret. :)

Bud expanded the original dmake with many more options.  A port to linux was also created, but it never caught on very well, I think partly because Derek was not keen on Linux development.  Anyway, build was always problematic on linux, such that it is now mostly recoginized for its very good win32 platform capabilites.

DSSS appeared when Gregor Richards came into the D scene.  Basically, when Gregor came here, he brought with him experience developing a universal package system for linux distributions (among other things) see http://oblisk.codu.org. Gregor was (and is) another one of those gifted and prolific development gurus that D tends to attract.  Many of us had been discussing how much D needed improved build facilities for multiple platforms.  Something seemed to click and in 2006, Gregor had released an early version of dsss which was basically a somewhat independent perspective on a "build/bud" tool but with a much broader purpose than just building software.  It was a net installer, a source builder, and a package manager (almost) all in one.  The only major thing lacking was package version control.  But he added some very simple but ingenious naming conventions for D object files and libraries that now should be considered mandatory for all D development.

The major difference with dsss that made it such a contrast from Derek's build was that the underlying "rebuild" tool made use of the whole Dmd frontend in order to parse source files accurately for dependencies.  Despite the double overhead, dsss still managed to be fast (at least during the early versions), but obviously not as fast as "build" which resorted to very simple parsing techniques for import statements.  There certainly were advantages and disadvanatages to this approach.  However, build's simplicity has actually caused it's attraction to grow again, as the contrast of dsss's complexity begins to show the benefits of a lighter design.  Future versions of dsss, I think, were going to adopt a different design approach as a result of this.

Later revisions added more and more great features (nothing that particularly weighed down it's rebuild component), including excellent support for both windows and linux, multiple compiler configurations, multiple "standard" library configurations (basically extreme customizability).  It pretty much became the defacto standard build tool for D.  Since then, the project has began to languish for various reasons, some related to the author's business with school and others relating to interaction difficulties with the dmd compiler technology.  There were problems with the dmd compile system that forced Gregor to make the dsss build process much slower (see oneatatime compile option) in the interest of stability. Nonetheless, version 0.75 still seems to be the best version to use as of now.  More recent versions seem to be unbearably slow due to the effect of recent frontend dmd code.

There is still tremendous potential to improve these tools, but I think we're just waiting for the next wave of inspiration to fall on someone here. :)

Probably more history here than you, but it was kind of fun looking back on it.  If anyone sees some inaccurancies, be sure to correct.

-JJR