December 13, 2011
On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 19:10:39 +0100
"dsimcha" <dsimcha@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, 13 December 2011 at 16:55:23 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
> > On the bright side for those who prefer D1 and Tango, this announcement comes after announcements about major work being done to port Tango to D2, since it's not only going to become easier to port D1 to D2, but you'll be able to use Tango in D2 if you want to (and without having to forgoe all of Phobos in the process, since they'll now work alongside each other).
> >
> > - Jonathan M Davis
> 
> Has anyone actually tried using the D2 port of Tango for real work yet?  If so, is it usable?
> 
> Also, how do we explain to newbies about Tango as it relates to D2, without explaining the whole history?  How do we justify to them that its functionality now overlaps with Phobos?

Hehe, Little blast from the past:

http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/forums/topic/257


December 13, 2011
On 12/13/2011 11:32 AM, Jesse Phillips wrote:
> Doesn't this just mean happy users? Which actually is still in support
> of the choice.

My experience is that no feedback == no users.
December 13, 2011
On 12/13/11 10:11 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> On 2011-12-13 14:09, Mike James wrote:
>> "Jacob Carlborg" <doob@me.com> wrote in message
>> news:jc785g$1hpa$2@digitalmars.com...
>>> On 2011-12-13 07:26, Jesse Phillips wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 22:57:02 +0000, Jesse Phillips wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I haven't used D1 for a long time so I can't claim a bad choice here.
>>>>
>>>> Actually I think I can state an opinion here. The two things that stand
>>>> out in my mind are.
>>>>
>>>> * There has been a statement of supporting D1 while it is in use (or at
>>>> least has a decent number of users). Maybe there aren't any, I don't
>>>> see
>>>> replies claiming such.
>>>
>>> I'm still using D1.
>>>
>>
>> That'll be one then :-)
>
> Yeah, because Andrei has managed to drive away all those who use D1
> because of decisions like the one above and without asking the community.

Apologies for that. Please let Walter and me know what we can do to make migration easier.

Thanks,

Andrei
December 13, 2011
On 2011-12-13 19:18, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
> dsimcha Wrote:
>> Also, how do we explain to newbies about Tango as it relates to
>> D2, without explaining the whole history?  How do we justify to
>> them that its functionality now overlaps with Phobos?
>
> Why would you have to explain it? Tango is just another
> third party library on D2, and third parties do their own
> implementations of a lot of things for a lot of reasons;
> it's not uncommon.
>
> I'd just say don't draw any special attention to it and I don't
> think it will be a problem.

I agree, just take a look at C++ libraries. Many of the implement their own string and vector classes even though it's available in the standard library.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
December 13, 2011
On 12/13/2011 12:34 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> I agree, just take a look at C++ libraries. Many of the implement their own
> string and vector classes even though it's available in the standard library.


Look no further than Array in the dmd sources :-)
December 13, 2011
On 13.12.2011 08:35, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 12/12/2011 10:26 PM, Jesse Phillips wrote:
>>  On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 22:57:02 +0000, Jesse Phillips wrote:
>>
>>>  I haven't used D1 for a long time so I can't claim a bad choice here.
>>
>>  Actually I think I can state an opinion here. The two things that stand
>>  out in my mind are.
>>
>>  * There has been a statement of supporting D1 while it is in use (or at
>>  least has a decent number of users). Maybe there aren't any, I don't see
>>  replies claiming such.
>
> There don't seem to be many anymore.

I've got one D1 spare time project that I'm still maintaining.  Zero D2 projects, as I tried it and then decided to wait until it has had more time to mature.

I'm still using DMD 1.061, since there are very few remaining serious compiler bugs.  The compiler has gotten pretty good, so the incentive to upgrade is not very strong.  And I rarely need to ask questions about D1, since I've been using it for 5 years now.

I have a feeling new users mostly go for D2, only to discover that it's not ready for prime time.  Then they just leave, instead of checking out D1.  Of course, I'm just guessing.
December 13, 2011
On 2011-12-13 19:55, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 12/13/2011 9:47 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>> If I recall correctly Walter has said he will continue to support D1
>> as long as
>> there are users.
>
> Yes, I did say that. For some time now, I've been releasing D1 betas and
> have not received any response to them. I haven't noticed new bug
> reports for D1. I haven't seen posts here about D1. I announced the D1
> 1.072 release a few days ago, and there wasn't a single comment on it.

Yeah, I noticed that. I'm still using D1. I usually don't have time to try all beta versions or releases for that matter. Your making solid improvements in every release and I'm grateful for that. I apologize if I haven't shown any gratitude.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
December 13, 2011
On 2011-12-13 20:24, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
> On Tuesday, 13 December 2011 at 17:47:30 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>> If I recall correctly Walter has said he will continue to support D1
>> as long as there are users.
>
> Will you really be still using D1 one year from now? Even then, why
> would you need official ongoing support from DigitalMars so much?

Well, I don't know. I don't think D2/Phobos is usable in its current state.

> For some perspective: the move to GitHub was less than one year ago. I
> was actually surprised of this when I revisited D's history recently,
> since it felt like a lot longer. The relative amount of progress done in
> this year alone is staggering.
>
>> Apparently not, when Andrei really wants something he just decides
> without consulting the community.
>
> Sorry, but demanding that others spend their time to serve a minority
> when that time could be better spent to serve a majority seems rather
> selfish to me.

I think it's selfish to decide for the hole community.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
December 13, 2011
On 12/13/2011 12:52 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> On 2011-12-13 19:55, Walter Bright wrote:
>> On 12/13/2011 9:47 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>>> If I recall correctly Walter has said he will continue to support D1
>>> as long as
>>> there are users.
>>
>> Yes, I did say that. For some time now, I've been releasing D1 betas and
>> have not received any response to them. I haven't noticed new bug
>> reports for D1. I haven't seen posts here about D1. I announced the D1
>> 1.072 release a few days ago, and there wasn't a single comment on it.
>
> Yeah, I noticed that. I'm still using D1. I usually don't have time to try all
> beta versions or releases for that matter. Your making solid improvements in
> every release and I'm grateful for that. I apologize if I haven't shown any
> gratitude.


It's not really about gratitude, but just letting me know that there's a point to doing those releases.
December 13, 2011
On Tuesday, 13 December 2011 at 21:00:22 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> Well, I don't know. I don't think D2/Phobos is usable in its current state.

Regarding the language itself - your opinion is neither rational nor popular. For contrast, I think that D2 is more usable than D1 right now due to higher expressiveness and new language features catching more bugs before I have to waste any time hunting them.

One year is plenty of time to complete a D2 port of Tango. Also, remember the state of Phobos of one year ago. Apply the delta to now, what do you see?

Most importantly, you didn't answer why you will require *continued support* of D1 one year in the future, and how it would justify sacrificing progress elsewhere. I think that a one-year warning is very generous.

> I think it's selfish to decide for the hole community.

Wait, so you actually believe that a vote would go in your favor?