December 14, 2011
On 12/14/11 3:09 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> On 2011-12-14 09:09, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>> On 12/14/11 1:44 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>>> On 2011-12-14 00:03, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>>>> On 12/13/11 3:00 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>>>>> I think it's selfish to decide for the hole community.
>>>>
>>>> Well the word "selfish" is not appropriate here because the decision
>>>> does not bring me any benefit. Perhaps you meant "arrogant" or
>>>> "conceited".
>>>
>>> I don't know that you're trying to achieve but it seems you trying to
>>> erase D1 from the history, pretending it never happened.
>>
>> How does announcing cease of support (not retiring the product) more
>> than one year in advance equate with attempting to erase a product from
>> history?
>
> That's the attitude you seem to have sometimes. Saying that D1 isn't
> usable because it lacks features.

I didn't say that either! How can we sustain a conversation if you claim I say things I didn't?

Andrei
December 14, 2011
On 12/14/11 3:09 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> On 2011-12-14 09:11, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>> On 12/14/11 1:42 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>>>> I understand how you might see things that way, but please trust me on
>>>> this one. It is the right thing do do, and the short-term difficulty
>>>> will be greatly rewarded in the long run.
>>>
>>> Probably, but as with the rest of the development of D2 everything
>>> happen to fast. TDPL was released without a compiler backing up all the
>>> features. Also no one knows what the correct behavior of a features is,
>>> what's in TDPL, what's in the compiler or what's in the spec.
>>
>> That would have been a great point if the announcement used the date of
>> December 31 of this year.
>>
>> Andrei
>
> It's still too soon because no one will know in what sate D2 is from a
> year from now.

I predict that one year from now D2 will be better than D1 and the Tango/D2 port will be better than Tango/D1.

Andrei
December 14, 2011
On 12/14/2011 12:45 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> The few times I've contributed to the compiler I've sent a patch or a pull
> request and the end result is that nothing happens. If I'm lucky I get a few
> comments, I answer them and then nothing.

There's currently one open dmd pull request from you. Any others you've done have been incorporated.

There are currently 68 open dmd pull requests and 490 closed/incorporated ones.
December 14, 2011
On 2011-12-14 10:40, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 12/14/2011 1:06 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>> But there are a few features I would
>> really like before the development on D1 ends. I'm thinking particular on
>> dynamic libraries.
>
> I am too. Shared library support is bubbling up on the priority list :-)

I'm glad to hear that.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
December 14, 2011
On 2011-12-14 10:46, Gour wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 09:45:51 +0100
> Jacob Carlborg<doob@me.com>  wrote:
>
>> The few times I've contributed to the compiler I've sent a patch or a
>> pull request and the end result is that nothing happens. If I'm lucky
>> I get a few comments, I answer them and then nothing.
>
> Heh, then fork it. ;)

I've already done that. But it's time consuming to keep up with the changes in upstream.

> Well, the situation is that resources in D are still not everwhelming
> and every bit spent on D1, means less time for D2.
>
> Moreover, D2 brings features which makes embracing D much more
> compelling. OK, I was not here in the time of D1, but seeing D1's
> feature list, I wouldn't think it is so special to invest in learning&
> using it.
>
> Another thing is I believe that Walter didn't delve in designing new
> language in order to be used for small hobby projects.
>
> Can you give me a list of some successful open-source projects written
> in D1 and/or some proprietary ones?

I don't know if all of them are successful but important: Tango, DWT, Minid, Orange, DVM, xfbuild to mention a few.

> Is there demand of paying support for D1?
>
> If not and if Walter prefers spending time on D2, I really do not
> understand why there is so much whining about it.
>
> If D1 wants to keep it, they're, afaict, free to do it.
>
> Is there anyone who can prevent Walter to write a post saying: "I'm fed up
> with D community being busy with faultfinding all the time, not being
> grateful for the time&  effort I'm putting into it, so from TODAY I'm
> quitting all the work on D1&  D2 and will focus on designing new X
> language?"

No

> I remember him from Zortech C++ compiler which was my *first* commercial
> package I bought and remembering the set of manuals coming along in a
> greyish hard box, I was thrilled with all support I got...same with
> updates.
>
> Now he is working for free...
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Gour
>
>


-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
December 14, 2011
On 2011-12-14 10:46, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> On 12/14/11 2:30 AM, Don wrote:
>> On 14.12.2011 05:37, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>>> There is no abandonment. Also, where is that 50/50 estimate from? Just
>>> curious.
>>
>> The D2 community is definitely bigger than the D1 community. But how
>> much more?
>
> I presume it's quite a bit larger. But then both are small, and we're
> interested in the potential and the rate of adoption.
>
>> It's hard to be sure, but the Tango users used to be 75% of the
>> community, based on a few polls that were held, but they never had much
>> representation on the ng. I guess between half and 2/3 are gone now.
>
> That seems a reasonable assessment. Possibly even more left.
>
>> I don't think the entire D community is as big as it was back then
>> (based on number of public repositories).
>
> That is also entirely possible.
>
>> Additionally, the number of contributors, and level of activity, in
>> Tango, was higher than Phobos has ever had.
>
> Agreed.
>
> But this is all missing the mark - why would we cry over spilled milk.
> The point is assessing the state of affairs the minute before the
> announcement. How active was Tango? How active were the Tango forums?
> Where were other forums of the D1 community? In this day and age, I'd be
> hard-pressed to think of an active programming language community that
> has no online presence whatsoever.
>
> To add to that, there was no trickle of bug reports or pull requests for
> D1, although clearly D1 does have its bugs and issues. I haven't
> followed Tango closely, but if D1 had a large active community, Tango
> would receive a lot of attention from its users as it's the de facto
> standard library for D1. Yet the last post
> (http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/forums/topic/903) dates from
> March 30. The intervals between changes to the trunk
> (http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/changeset/5691/) are measured in
> months.

The forum has never been very active. Lately there hasn't been that much activity as it used to be but the if you look at the timeline, the last event was 7 days ago.

http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/timeline

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
December 14, 2011
On 2011-12-14 10:48, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> On 12/14/11 2:55 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>> On 2011-12-14 08:56, Walter Bright wrote:
>>> On 12/13/2011 11:29 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>>>> Then let me say: "I still use D1 for all my projects".
>>>
>>> I hear you. What can we do to make this work for you?
>>
>> I think it's too soon to discontinue the support for D1. I would hope
>> that we could continue like this, having D1 in maintenance mode, for a
>> while longer.
>
> How long?
>
> Andrei
>

I don't know, it's more about in what state D2 and Phobos is and what changes D1 will get before the support ends. I'm thinking mostly of dynamic libraries.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
December 14, 2011
On 2011-12-14 10:50, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 12/14/2011 12:30 AM, Don wrote:
>> So, didn't sound then as though D1 was a big issue. Yet a month later you
>> announce you've made a private decision about axing D1.
>> Feels exactly like a military coup.
>
> Well, it wasn't one. The thing is, as I posted in this thread recently,
> there's little to no evidence of D1 interest - nobody responded to the
> beta, no posts about D1, no new bug reports about D1, no response to the
> new D1 releases (yes, Jacob just did a reply to it), etc.
>
> I feel like I was supporting D1 in a vacuum. I've been thinking about
> ending support for it for some time because of that.
>
> I don't know where the D1 community is, or even if it exists anymore.

There are constantly around 25 people in the Tango channel on IRC.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
December 14, 2011
On 12/14/2011 1:46 AM, Gour wrote:
> I remember him from Zortech C++ compiler which was my *first* commercial
> package I bought and remembering the set of manuals coming along in a
> greyish hard box,

Those are valuable collectors' items now!
December 14, 2011
On 12/14/2011 2:24 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> I don't know, it's more about in what state D2 and Phobos is and what changes D1
> will get before the support ends. I'm thinking mostly of dynamic libraries.

It's likely D1 and D2 will get dynamic libraries at the same time, because it's mostly a backend issue.