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On the panel discussion at Dconf day 3
Sep 04, 2023
A.Guy
Sep 04, 2023
user1234
Sep 04, 2023
Francesco Mecca
Sep 04, 2023
Sergey
Sep 04, 2023
user1234
Sep 04, 2023
Mike Parker
Sep 05, 2023
bachmeier
Sep 05, 2023
Walter Bright
Sep 07, 2023
ryuukk_
Sep 07, 2023
Jonathan M Davis
Sep 07, 2023
Walter Bright
Sep 07, 2023
German Diago
Sep 07, 2023
Walter Bright
Sep 09, 2023
Paul Backus
Sep 09, 2023
ryuukk_
Sep 09, 2023
claptrap
Sep 09, 2023
Paul Backus
Sep 10, 2023
Walter Bright
Sep 10, 2023
Adam Wilson
Sep 10, 2023
German Diago
Sep 10, 2023
Paul Backus
Sep 05, 2023
Ethan
Sep 07, 2023
Meta
Sep 07, 2023
FeepingCreature
Sep 07, 2023
Walter Bright
Mar 22
surfcrone
Mar 23
harakim
Sep 04, 2023
claptrap
Sep 04, 2023
user1234
Sep 10, 2023
Adam Wilson
Sep 10, 2023
claptrap
Sep 11, 2023
Adam Wilson
Sep 11, 2023
Walter Bright
Sep 10, 2023
sighoya
Sep 10, 2023
bachmeier
September 04, 2023

During the last day's panel discussion at the Dconf, the presence of the Ucora marketing representative was truly in poor taste. Not to mention the fact that he was given so much speaking time amid various technical questions. Upon reviewing the video on YouTube, it feels like we're watching interspersed advertisements.

If IVY were indeed something serious, perhaps it wouldn't need all this publicity, and instead of having the Ucora representative speak, we could have received substantial details from Walter or Atila (not just the "it made me realize I should listen to the contributors and not mind my own business..." comment). It seems like there's a lot of fluff and excessive promotion of their IVY program, all of this happening in the midst of the only Dlang event that has some level of presence and media attention. As a spectator, I simply felt embarrassed.

September 04, 2023

On Monday, 4 September 2023 at 08:40:13 UTC, A.Guy wrote:

>

During the last day's panel discussion at the Dconf, the presence of the Ucora marketing representative was truly in poor taste. Not to mention the fact that he was given so much speaking time amid various technical questions. Upon reviewing the video on YouTube, it feels like we're watching interspersed advertisements.

If IVY were indeed something serious, perhaps it wouldn't need all this publicity, and instead of having the Ucora representative speak, we could have received substantial details from Walter or Atila (not just the "it made me realize I should listen to the contributors and not mind my own business..." comment). It seems like there's a lot of fluff and excessive promotion of their IVY program, all of this happening in the midst of the only Dlang event that has some level of presence and media attention. As a spectator, I simply felt embarrassed.

It was announced by Mike that the conference will be the occasion to introduce the adhesion with UCORA system. I take this more as a proof of transparency.

>

Not to mention the fact that he was given so much speaking time amid various technical questions

During the panel talk, one of the question asked to the UCORA representative was actually planed to be asked on day one... maybe this contributed to give the impression of over-representation. However the answer, as summarized here was "The D community at large doesn't have to care". Given your name, "A.Guy", I'm gonna assume that, just like me, you fall in that "large" category ;)

September 04, 2023

On Monday, 4 September 2023 at 09:07:18 UTC, user1234 wrote:

>

On Monday, 4 September 2023 at 08:40:13 UTC, A.Guy wrote:

>

During the last day's panel discussion at the Dconf, the presence of the Ucora marketing representative was truly in poor taste. Not to mention the fact that he was given so much speaking time amid various technical questions. Upon reviewing the video on YouTube, it feels like we're watching interspersed advertisements.

If IVY were indeed something serious, perhaps it wouldn't need all this publicity, and instead of having the Ucora representative speak, we could have received substantial details from Walter or Atila (not just the "it made me realize I should listen to the contributors and not mind my own business..." comment). It seems like there's a lot of fluff and excessive promotion of their IVY program, all of this happening in the midst of the only Dlang event that has some level of presence and media attention. As a spectator, I simply felt embarrassed.

It was announced by Mike that the conference will be the occasion to introduce the adhesion with UCORA system. I take this more as a proof of transparency.

>

Not to mention the fact that he was given so much speaking time amid various technical questions

During the panel talk, one of the question asked to the UCORA representative was actually planed to be asked on day one... maybe this contributed to give the impression of over-representation. However the answer, as summarized here was "The D community at large doesn't have to care". Given your name, "A.Guy", I'm gonna assume that, just like me, you fall in that "large" category ;)

I have seen most of the day 3 stream on youtube and while I don't agree that the Ucor had over-representation, I hold the opinion that if the D community doesn't have to care about Ucora, for sure we have heard a lot about them, always in very generic terms and without a trace of proof that they did something significant. While I am happy that D is gaining some corporate traction, I have personally interacted with Sociomantic people and Symmetry people, this Ucora thing seems more like a cult. My personal IVY statement is that if this IVY program works, we would see the effects of it in the short/medium term, for now we only have the free - I hope! - marketing done by Walter, Mike and Atila.

I am not contributing to D anymore for different reasons but I am still following development closely. Nothing has effectively changed in the past year.

My current position in this is that I don't care much about Ucora but I welcome any positive change by the core D team. That would speak more for Ucora than any of the free visibility they got at Dconf

September 04, 2023

On Monday, 4 September 2023 at 09:07:18 UTC, user1234 wrote:

>

It was announced by Mike that the conference will be the occasion to introduce the adhesion with UCORA system. I take this more as a proof of transparency.

Ok. But next time DLF please invite some language or technical related guest.
Previously we had outstanding guests... Meyers, Odersky, Ierusalimschy, Alexandrescu

Could we return to this tradition?

September 04, 2023

On Monday, 4 September 2023 at 09:58:53 UTC, Sergey wrote:

>

On Monday, 4 September 2023 at 09:07:18 UTC, user1234 wrote:

>

It was announced by Mike that the conference will be the occasion to introduce the adhesion with UCORA system. I take this more as a proof of transparency.

Ok. But next time DLF please invite some language or technical related guest.
Previously we had outstanding guests... Meyers,

Ah yes, that year in Berlin with Meyers was so cool ;)
The venue was overcool too. Little streaming issues however IIRC tho.

>

Odersky, Ierusalimschy, Alexandrescu

Could we return to this tradition?

September 04, 2023

On Monday, 4 September 2023 at 08:40:13 UTC, A.Guy wrote:

>

During the last day's panel discussion at the Dconf, the presence of the Ucora marketing representative was truly in poor taste. Not to mention the fact that he was given so much speaking time amid various technical questions. Upon reviewing the video on YouTube, it feels like we're watching interspersed advertisements.

If IVY were indeed something serious, perhaps it wouldn't need all this publicity, and instead of having the Ucora representative speak, we could have received substantial details from Walter or Atila (not just the "it made me realize I should listen to the contributors and not mind my own business..." comment). It seems like there's a lot of fluff and excessive promotion of their IVY program, all of this happening in the midst of the only Dlang event that has some level of presence and media attention. As a spectator, I simply felt embarrassed.

For quite a while, we'd received many complaints about lack of vision/direction/management. When we finished the IVY program, I made an announcement to let everyone know we're trying to do something about that. IVY just happens to be the tool we're using to make it happen.

Some of the responses to that were much like yours, calling it a cult, propaganda, etc. I tried to say a bit more about it in another post, and then discussed it in one of our BeerConf sessions, but I could only scratch the surface. I received several DMs and emails about it.

We invited Saeed as our guest speaker and added him to our panel so that we could better inform the community what IVY actually is and give them the opportunity to ask questions of the source. The purpose was infornational, not commercial. The workshop allowed those interested in learning more to get a closer look. Several people took advantage.

We are employing IVY to better organize and establish a path for pushing D, the ecosystem, and our community forward. You really don't have to care about it at all. If you want to think it's a cult, that's your prerogative. I can tell you until the cows come home that it is not a cult and that we aren't just marketing it for Ucora, and you might never believe me. That's perfectly fine. Go about using D and participating in the community in any way you like and forget that IVY exists.

One of the things IVY is doing for us is helping us to learn how to identify why our contributors want to contribute and what form of contribution would best suit them. That will help us better determine which tasks in our ecosystem any given contributor will be the most motivated and passionate about completing. If any given contributor wants to actively participate in IVY, then their IVY statement will make the process of assigning tasks even easier. Motivated and passionate contributors will hopefully be happier about their contributions and should see more positive outcomes---a win-win for all of us.

Ucora's motivation comes in wanting to see the D Language Foundation succeed. They have built their business on D and it is very much in their long-term interest for the D language, ecosystem, and community to thrive. They might make money off of IVY as a consequence, but it's the survivability of D that led them to invite us to their program pro bono. Their interests are aligned with ours. I see that as a win for all of us.

I'm always happy to talk to anyone about what IVY is and how we're using it, but we aren't going to force it on anyone. We just want to solve the problems our users are having, build out the ecosystem to be more useful and cover more ground, and generally make our favorite programming language even better.

September 04, 2023

On Monday, 4 September 2023 at 08:40:13 UTC, A.Guy wrote:

>

During the last day's panel discussion at the Dconf, the presence of the Ucora marketing representative was truly in poor taste. Not to mention the fact that he was given so much speaking time amid various technical questions. Upon reviewing the video on YouTube, it feels like we're watching interspersed advertisements.

If IVY were indeed something serious, perhaps it wouldn't need all this publicity,

Seriously you think Ucora were at DConf for publicity?

I mean you really think that?

You really think Ucora had a meeting and came to the conclusion that training the DLF people for free and sending Saeed (spelling?) to dconf was a cost effective way to reach new customers?

mind blowing

September 04, 2023

On Monday, 4 September 2023 at 22:39:53 UTC, claptrap wrote:

>

On Monday, 4 September 2023 at 08:40:13 UTC, A.Guy wrote:

>

During the last day's panel discussion at the Dconf, the presence of the Ucora marketing representative was truly in poor taste. Not to mention the fact that he was given so much speaking time amid various technical questions. Upon reviewing the video on YouTube, it feels like we're watching interspersed advertisements.

If IVY were indeed something serious, perhaps it wouldn't need all this publicity,

Seriously you think Ucora were at DConf for publicity?

I mean you really think that?

You really think Ucora had a meeting and came to the conclusion that training the DLF people for free and sending Saeed (spelling?) to dconf was a cost effective way to reach new customers?

mind blowing

That reminds me, 3 years ago, when I didn't achieve anything in life and was so toxic because of that. At some point I insulted everyone ;)

September 05, 2023

On Monday, 4 September 2023 at 19:33:50 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:

>

For quite a while, we'd received many complaints about lack of vision/direction/management. When we finished the IVY program, I made an announcement to let everyone know we're trying to do something about that. IVY just happens to be the tool we're using to make it happen.

Some of the responses to that were much like yours, calling it a cult, propaganda, etc. I tried to say a bit more about it in another post, and then discussed it in one of our BeerConf sessions, but I could only scratch the surface. I received several DMs and emails about it.

I think the issue is that some view development of the language as a programming problem. If that's your view, talking about IVY is at best out of place, because it's a distraction from writing new lines of code.

September 04, 2023
The offer for Ivy training roughly coincided with this thread:

https://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/D_has_become_unbearable_and_it_needs_to_stop_369162.html

I was skeptical of Ivy, as I've seen a lot of things like it. But I also knew we needed improvement in how D was managed, so I was willing to give it a try.

The result is pretty obvious, we have changed direction. Ideas for new features for D have been deferred for the time being. What we're working on instead:

1. we are no longer going to break things just because they are obsolete features

2. obsolete features we removed are being added back in

3. we want to ensure that, as much as practical, old code will compile without needing modification or modification to their build mechanism (i.e. makefile)

4. we are going to prioritize fixing existing problems

5. we are going to try to assign tasks to our diverse community in ways that better match up with what people want to do. Personally, I was surprised at how different peoples' reasons for joining the community are. I just assumed everyone is just like me :-)

It's perfectly normal for managers to go through some sort of training. I am certainly not a born leader, as you all know, and can use the help. None of it is a secret, and we thought it would be nice to share with our community, and at the very least you all would understand why we were making these changes in direction.

Everyone is free to use it or not as they see fit.
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