> Ideas for new features for D have been deferred for the time being

This is the saddest thing ever, i've been waiting for tagged union / tuple since forever

IVY = bureaucracy + religion, recipe for disaster, and we are already seeing the effects: the language is now in a deep freeze state

On 08/09/2023 6:31 AM, ryuukk_ wrote:
> the language is now in a deep freeze state

Nope.

New features were off the table for a year so as to allow us to focus on fixing bugs and hopefully finish of existing approved ones. DIP queue will be brought back at the end of this year. That was always the plan and was confirmed at DConf.

On Thursday, September 7, 2023 12:31:10 PM MDT ryuukk_ via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> > Ideas for new features for D have been deferred for the time being
>
> This is the saddest thing ever, i've been waiting for tagged union / tuple since forever

Well, waiting for any particular feature could always mean waiting forever, since some stuff is never going to make it into D regardless, though of course, it's hard to know ahead of time which features will eventually make it in and which won't.

> IVY = bureaucracy + religion, recipe for disaster, and we are already seeing the effects: the language is now in a deep freeze state

Not really. All that really seems to have come out of IVY is that Walter and and company have re-examined the role of the D foundation, what their personal goals are with regards to D, and what the goal of the foundation should be. No bureucracy was actually added as part of any of it. At most, some time was arguably lost with the time that they spent in IVY meetings to go over their goals and where they want to go with D, but if what came out of those meetings helped focus them (as it sounds like happened), it could be that the overall result will be less time wasted over time. Either way, there was no bureaucracy added to how the D foundation or the D development process actually functions.

Basically, Walter and company re-examined where they wanted D to go and what they could best do to achieve that, and they were getting a lot of feedback that too much existing code was being broken, and not enough bugs were getting fixed. So, they're temporarily focusing on fixing stuff over adding new stuff, and they're working on coming up with a cleaner way to add new features to the language over time without breaking existing code. That does mean that we're not getting new features for the moment, but it doesn't mean that things will stay that way, and depending on how well they do with better enabling adding new features without breaking code, we might actually see more new features in the future than we would have otherwise.

They're still trying to figure out the details, but it sounds like they're going to attempt to make it so that major changes to the language will be versioned off in some fashion (what they're calling additions) while letting older code compile with the same semantics that it had before. So, newer code will use a newer version of the language while still being able to work with older code that hasn't been updated. How well they're going to pull that off is an open question, but if they do a good job with it, it should make it easier to make larger changes, because they won't be breaking older code at the same time, whereas right now, they have to be very worried about breaking existing code with every change that they make. So, the fact that they're re-examining their approach to making breaking changes to the language could actually result in us getting new features faster over time even if it means that there has temporarily been a freeze on new features in the meantime.

- Jonathan M Davis

On Thursday, 7 September 2023 at 18:31:10 UTC, ryuukk_ wrote:
>> Ideas for new features for D have been deferred for the time being
>
> This is the saddest thing ever, i've been waiting for tagged union / tuple since forever
>
> IVY = bureaucracy + religion, recipe for disaster, and we are already seeing the effects: the language is now in a deep freeze state

I really think D already has a very compelling set of features today. Priority for real-world stability is a good thing. Later, things can be added. That increases the chances of D being adopted and adoption is not just for pleasing corporations. It is also what will keep the language going ahead and what makes people write software in it in the first place.

On 9/7/2023 11:31 AM, ryuukk_ wrote:
>> Ideas for new features for D have been deferred for the time being
> 
> This is the saddest thing ever, i've been waiting for tagged union / tuple since forever
> 
> IVY = bureaucracy + religion, recipe for disaster, and we are already seeing the effects: the language is now in a deep freeze state
> 

A fine example of we can't please everybody!

On 9/7/2023 11:56 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
> (what they're calling additions)

editions

On 9/7/2023 11:34 AM, FeepingCreature wrote:
> minimal exposure to consultants and any sort of social "system" training course.

There are many of them, and the efficacy of them varies widely, of course.

The military, for example, is very organized in providing leadership training to officers. This is based on a couple thousand years of recorded military history. It's effective. The military is not going to leave it to chance.

The mistake is thinking we somehow are born with innate knowledge of how to lead, and therefore can just wing it.

Steve Jobs was not a born leader, he learned how to be one. See the book "The Second Coming of Steve Jobs". Ronald Reagan took an intensive course in training how to present his ideas when he announced a run for the Presidency. Bill Clinton reportedly took 2 weeks off every year for a retreat which honed his presentations.

The trick, of course, is to take the right course.

Ivy is probably the simplest of all the ones I've seen. It also lines up with what I know works in business and personal relationships.