On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:00:17 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
> On 6/12/15 1:00 AM, Mattcoder wrote:
>> On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 04:51:29 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
>>> The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs $500
>>> new, and you get Xcode free.
>>
>> I don't want to be that guy but living in Brazil that Mac Mini
>> (Yosemite) costs 6x more in here. I mean it can be more cheap to travel
>> to U.S. and buy one there and go back than buying directly in here.
>
> That a pretty steep hike, I wonder why it's so much more expensive!
>
> -Steve

it's often referred to as 'brazil cost,' it gets rather political.

On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:03:59 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
> If the cost of the computer you are using is *that* important to you, you aren't serious about investing what it takes to get the tools you need. That was part of my point.
>
> If you're telling me it's not worth an extra $160 to work on iOS, I think you probably have other objections besides that. It's OK, iOS development is not everyone's cup of tea.

Woah now, that's an overly broad statement and carries some assumptions. $160 is my mom's MONTHLY salary over here.

On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 11:58:35 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
> On 6/12/15 3:36 AM, Paulo Pinto wrote:
>> On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 04:51:29 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
>>> On 6/11/15 11:47 PM, Joakim wrote:
>>>> On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 02:13:26 UTC, Dan Olson wrote:
>>>>> Looks like there is no membership fee to build and install your own
>>>>> iOS apps with Xcode now.  As usual, you still need a Mac to run Xcode.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://9to5mac.com/2015/06/10/xcode-7-allows-anyone-to-download-build-and-sideload-ios-apps-for-free/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Huh, that's crazy that they don't make the iOS toolchain available
>>>> outside OS X.  The Android toolchain is available for all three major
>>>> desktop platforms.  Still, good that at least you don't have to pay now.
>>>
>>> You can develop for iOS on other platforms (I think not using
>>> objective-c or swift), but you cannot submit an app to the app store
>>> without Xcode.
>>>
>>> Really, I don't see why Apple needs to care about other platforms --
>>> it's their toolchain, their runtime. This makes things very easy for
>>> them support-wise, and people still line up to get iPhones, so the
>>> incentive to support other platforms isn't really there.
>>>
>>> At dconf, I'd say at least 50% of the laptops were macs. They are good
>>> systems to use.
>>>
>>> The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs $500
>>> new, and you get Xcode free.
>>>
>>
>> The minimum wage in Portugal is around 400€ after taxes, with around
>> 1000€ for many university degrees.
>>
>> You can guess how many go out and buy a Mac.
>
>
> Those who are serious and willing to invest will buy one. I bought my macbook in 2011 for about $1800, I've made more than 50x that with it since doing iOS work.
>
> If you want to make minimum wage, I can guess you shouldn't buy a mac :)
>
> -Steve

Which wouldn't happen in Portugal, where it is easier to see someone on the street with Android, WP, feature phone than iOS.

While most handsets are bought with pre-paid cards, iPhone requires a contract.

Before Apple was reborn, buying a Mac meant having to travel to Porto or Lisbon and get one there, with leasing. Same thing to get them repaired.

My university in Lisbon (UNL) was the first time I got to see LCs live, even then only used by administrative personal and one room for students with around 10 of them.

Everywhere else on the campus there were DG/UX, Aix terminals and PCs available.

Nowadays you can get them everywhere at a big surface, but for most families still means making use of 3 - 5 years leasing, given the average salaries and life cost.

--
Paulo

On 6/12/15 8:07 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
> On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:03:59 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
>> If the cost of the computer you are using is *that* important to you,
>> you aren't serious about investing what it takes to get the tools you
>> need. That was part of my point.
>>
>> If you're telling me it's not worth an extra $160 to work on iOS, I
>> think you probably have other objections besides that. It's OK, iOS
>> development is not everyone's cup of tea.
>
> Woah now, that's an overly broad statement and carries some assumptions.
> $160 is my mom's MONTHLY salary over here.

Is your mom a software developer? If you spent $160 more and were able to increase your salary 10x, wouldn't that be worth it? Perhaps that's not possible in your country, I don't really have an answer for that.

I'm not trying to say everyone should buy a mac or that they are cheap enough for everyone to afford. I'm saying if your investment in buying a mac increases your income significantly (as it did for me), the cost doesn't matter. It's an enabler for things that just aren't possible without it. Sorry if it came off sounding arrogant or insensitive.

-Steve

On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:21:12 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
> Is your mom a software developer? If you spent $160 more and were able to increase your salary 10x, wouldn't that be worth it?

10x? What sort of pipe dream is that?

> I'm not trying to say everyone should buy a mac or that they are cheap enough for everyone to afford. I'm saying if your investment in buying a mac increases your income significantly (as it did for me), the cost doesn't matter. It's an enabler for things that just aren't possible without it.

I guess that explains why so many programs with the same functionality are freeware on Windows and commercial on OSX. Open-source software development gives me 0 income, so it'd be a negative net gain.

On 6/12/15 8:07 AM, "Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQi?= <ola.fosheim.grostad+dlang@gmail.com>" wrote:
> On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 11:58:35 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
>> Those who are serious and willing to invest will buy one. I bought my
>> macbook in 2011 for about $1800, I've made more than 50x that with it
>> since doing iOS work.
>
> You don't find it odd that my 2012 mac mini is faster than similarly
> priced macs today?

I do find it odd! Generally apple lowers their prices periodically for their newer versions, and the new stuff is usually faster.

But, they do typically take away higher options for older models. For instance, the iPhones when they become the cheaper option, they limit the memory to 8 or 16GB.

Looking at wikipedia, I see they don't offer a quad-core for the 2014 version as a base option (and they went from i7 to i5!), that's a shame.

Also, not upgradeable RAM... I take it back. Don't buy one of these :) Buy a used 2012 version instead! That's a significant downgrade, I don't know who's deciding these things, but that's definitely a failure.

> What kind of apps do you make, it would be fun to have a look at them :)

This is the app I worked on for 2 years (under contract): http://www.replaylocker.com/ I only worked with the iOS version, not the android version (which is a hand-ported clone of the iOS).

I also wrote all the server code (C++ unfortunately, but you can definitely see my D roots in it :), which ran on an ARM based SBC. It was a pretty neat project, lots of networking challenges.

There used to be demos to download so you could see how the system works without actually being in a location that supported it, but I think they took those down to save on bandwidth. So if you install the app, you likely will be disappointed :)

-Steve

On 6/12/15 8:29 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
> On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:21:12 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
>> Is your mom a software developer? If you spent $160 more and were able
>> to increase your salary 10x, wouldn't that be worth it?
>
> 10x? What sort of pipe dream is that?

OK, 2x, 1.5x. I have no frame of reference for what you can make as an iOS developer in your country. Where I live, I can make much more than 10x $160 per month. But if it increases your salary, it's worth investing in, no?

>> I'm not trying to say everyone should buy a mac or that they are cheap
>> enough for everyone to afford. I'm saying if your investment in buying
>> a mac increases your income significantly (as it did for me), the cost
>> doesn't matter. It's an enabler for things that just aren't possible
>> without it.
>
> I guess that explains why so many programs with the same functionality
> are freeware on Windows and commercial on OSX. Open-source software
> development gives me 0 income, so it'd be a negative net gain.

I don't agree with your statement, why would someone charge money on one platform and not on the other? Almost all apps from Apple are free for your Mac. Those that aren't generally have free alternatives.

And I agree, doing open-source freeware development doesn't justify buying a computer of any kind. That's not what I was saying.

-Steve

On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:42:37 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
> On 6/12/15 8:29 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
>> On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:21:12 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
>>> Is your mom a software developer? If you spent $160 more and were able
>>> to increase your salary 10x, wouldn't that be worth it?
>>
>> 10x? What sort of pipe dream is that?
>
> OK, 2x, 1.5x. I have no frame of reference for what you can make as an iOS developer in your country. Where I live, I can make much more than 10x $160 per month. But if it increases your salary, it's worth investing in, no?

You said 10x salary increase, not 10x return on investment. I won't argue with that. But just owning a piece of hardware isn't going to *multiply* your existing income.

>> I guess that explains why so many programs with the same functionality
>> are freeware on Windows and commercial on OSX. Open-source software
>> development gives me 0 income, so it'd be a negative net gain.
>
> I don't agree with your statement, why would someone charge money on one platform and not on the other? Almost all apps from Apple are free for your Mac. Those that aren't generally have free alternatives.

Last time I looked there was a pretty big difference in the diversity and availability of 3rd-party software. Which makes sense considering also the much smaller user market share.

> And I agree, doing open-source freeware development doesn't justify buying a computer of any kind.

What?

Here's the problem: if I own a PC, I can install Windows, Linux, FreeBSD etc. on it with no problems, or I can run any in a VM. I can do neither with OS X, I have to buy overpriced hardware from Apple to do that.

On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:47:36 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
> [...]

I regret getting involved in an OS holywar. Sorry, I'm done with this thread.

On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:48:36 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
> On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:47:36 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
>> [...]
>
> I regret getting involved in an OS holywar. Sorry, I'm done with this thread.

fedora > debian
vim > emacs