On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:34:06 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
> Also, not upgradeable RAM... I take it back. Don't buy one of these :) Buy a used 2012 version instead! That's a significant downgrade, I don't know who's deciding these things, but that's definitely a failure.

Yeah, buy used, refurbished or just look for ways to upgrade parts seems like a good idea these days. Maybe companies like Apple and Microsoft just need control freaks like Jobs and Gates to keep things focused?

I wonder if they had problems making MacPro earn back R&D and saw iOS dev accounts making purchases of the 4-core minis. That could explain this "rational business decision" at the cost of bad PR with developers.

In my country the mid-end MacPro (6 cores@3.5Ghz) is at 5164USD, but a store bought Haswell CPU 6 cores@3.3Ghz is at 477USD. That does not add up!

By building my own I'd probably save over 60% for my use (compiling) .

> This is the app I worked on for 2 years (under contract): http://www.replaylocker.com/ I only worked with the iOS version, not the android version (which is a hand-ported clone of the iOS).

That's pretty cool! Of course, if you have a contract with a solid entity you can also invest with a light heart :-).

Investing in your own ideas in order to make money back on the app-store with no contract is a very risky investment though.

> bandwidth. So if you install the app, you likely will be disappointed :)

Ah, but the website explains it pretty well. Looks like a very nice project to get involved with. Of course, next time you'll get to push harder for D since it has better C++ interop now. :)

On 2015-06-12 06:51, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

> You can develop for iOS on other platforms (I think not using
> objective-c or swift), but you cannot submit an app to the app store
> without Xcode.

I think Microsoft supports this. I don't remeber all the details but I think they showed launching an iOS simulator from Visual Studio, also launching the Apple iOS simulator running on a Mac.

They've also implemented Cocoa Touch on Windows 10 to allow to easily port iOS application to Windows 10.

Then there's of course Xamarin with its Mono that supports iOS development.

> The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs $500
> new, and you get Xcode free.

In Sweden it costs $670.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg

On 6/12/15 8:47 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
> On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:42:37 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
>> On 6/12/15 8:29 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
>>> On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:21:12 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
>>>> Is your mom a software developer? If you spent $160 more and were able
>>>> to increase your salary 10x, wouldn't that be worth it?
>>>
>>> 10x? What sort of pipe dream is that?
>>
>> OK, 2x, 1.5x. I have no frame of reference for what you can make as an
>> iOS developer in your country. Where I live, I can make much more than
>> 10x $160 per month. But if it increases your salary, it's worth
>> investing in, no?
>
> You said 10x salary increase, not 10x return on investment.

I said 10x because your mom's salary was the same as the difference between Nick's laptop and a Mac mini. What a crazy equation :)

In any case, it's just the $160/month salary I was talking about.

> I won't
> argue with that. But just owning a piece of hardware isn't going to
> *multiply* your existing income.

It definitely increased my income. How much depends on how much your income was before. If it's > cost of the system, then I would say it's worth it. I guess I look at things differently.

>>> I guess that explains why so many programs with the same functionality
>>> are freeware on Windows and commercial on OSX. Open-source software
>>> development gives me 0 income, so it'd be a negative net gain.
>>
>> I don't agree with your statement, why would someone charge money on
>> one platform and not on the other? Almost all apps from Apple are free
>> for your Mac. Those that aren't generally have free alternatives.
>
> Last time I looked there was a pretty big difference in the diversity
> and availability of 3rd-party software. Which makes sense considering
> also the much smaller user market share.

I haven't had a problem yet finding software that does what I need in Macos.

>> And I agree, doing open-source freeware development doesn't justify
>> buying a computer of any kind.
>
> What?

The equation is:

salary(currentEquipment) < salary(currentEquipment + newEqupiment) - costOfNewEquipment

If your salary increase for adding new equipment, whatever it is, is negative, then the salary increase can't be a justifying factor for purchasing the new equipment.

> Here's the problem: if I own a PC, I can install Windows, Linux, FreeBSD
> etc. on it with no problems, or I can run any in a VM. I can do neither
> with OS X, I have to buy overpriced hardware from Apple to do that.

Again, if the fact that the hardware is overpriced is a potential deal-breaker, then it isn't for you. Don't run OSX if you don't want to. Don't write code for iOS if you don't want to. If you do want to, and you intend to use it to increase your income, then the "overpriced" hardware is worth it. That's ALL I'm saying.

On 6/12/15 8:48 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
>
> I regret getting involved in an OS holywar. Sorry, I'm done with this
> thread.

Well, OK then. I didn't know it was a holy war :)

-Steve

On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 12:00:17 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
> ...
> That a pretty steep hike, I wonder why it's so much more expensive!

Import taxes and currency (Brazilian $ 3.20 = U$ 1.00).

Welcome to the jungle! :)

Matheus.

On 06/12/2015 08:03 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
> On 6/12/15 2:45 AM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
>> On 06/12/2015 12:51 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
>>>
>>> The cost is really minimal if you are serious. A Mac Mini costs $500
>>> new, and you get Xcode free.
>>>
>>
>> The last two computers I bought were about $340 each. And those are
>> laptops, with screen and battery and everything.
>>
>
> If the cost of the computer you are using is *that* important to you,
> you aren't serious about investing what it takes to get the tools you
> need. That was part of my point.
>

It was late and I (mis?)interpreted your statement as "Macs are inexpensive these days". I was only making a counterargument to that.

I'm not saying it can't be worthwhile investment in certain cases. If I had a mobile program out that was doing well on some other platform (ex Android), I'd certainly pony up for the various iOS costs-of-entry.

But it *is* still a much higher cost-of-entry for most people (since most people aren't already on OSX) than for the other mobile platforms.

It is good though that they've finally relaxed their stance a bit on what's now being called "side-loading" (or as I've called it since the 1980's, "Running my own freaking software on my own freaking machine"). Now it appears MS has dropped to last place in that regard (last I checked, they kinda let you do it, moreso than Apple used to, but there's still some goofy restrictions and it appeared primarily geared towards corporations with their own proprietary in-house-only tools).

On 06/12/2015 07:58 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
>
> Those who are serious and willing ***and able*** to invest will buy one.

Fixed.

> If you want to make minimum wage,

You've got to be fucking kidding everyone. Step out of your ivory tower once in a while.

>[...]I can guess you shouldn't buy a mac :)
>

In any case, you have your sequence of events is seriously backwards here.

The correct order is:

1: Obtain $
2: THEN Spend $
3: GOTO 1

Notice how the loop can only be primed with "Obtain", not "Spend shit you don't fucking even have".

On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 19:36:25 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
> It is good though that they've finally relaxed their stance a bit on what's now being called "side-loading" (or as I've called it since the 1980's, "Running my own freaking software on my own freaking machine"). Now it appears MS has dropped to last place in that regard (last I checked, they kinda let you do it, moreso than Apple used to, but there's still some goofy restrictions and it appeared primarily geared towards corporations with their own proprietary in-house-only tools).

it will never cease to amaze me that people are paying for things they don't even own.

If you can't modify something, you don't own it - you're leasing it.

On 6/12/15 3:44 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
> On 06/12/2015 07:58 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
>>
>> Those who are serious and willing ***and able*** to invest will buy one.
>
> Fixed.
>
>> If you want to make minimum wage,
>
> You've got to be fucking kidding everyone. Step out of your ivory tower
> once in a while.

Gladly, it's nice outside today!

>> [...]I can guess you shouldn't buy a mac :)
>>
>
> In any case, you have your sequence of events is seriously backwards here.
>
> The correct order is:
>
> 1: Obtain $
> 2: THEN Spend $
> 3: GOTO 1
>
> Notice how the loop can only be primed with "Obtain", not "Spend shit
> you don't fucking even have".

Are you fucking kidding me? People who work minimum wage jobs have iPhones. They have credit cards. If someone has the ability to make above minimum wage, and all they have to do is finance the purchase of a mac, if they don't do it, then they have their priorities messed up.

Note, I don't think everyone *can* make money if they just purchase a mac. I'm saying if you have the skills (and desire), and it costs you the risk of charging $500 on a credit card, you should do it if all you can get is minimum wage work otherwise. This is exactly how people get ahead in life, they don't wait for handouts. People who have successful businesses didn't start out with magical seed capital that didn't have to be paid back, they started out by working hard, making do with what they had, sacrificing other things, learning from their mistakes, and building on their successes. They don't cry in the corner saying "poor me, if only I had X I could get ahead." Ask any person who built a company.

Anyway, this is getting far too political. Now, about that bikeshed color...

-Steve

On 06/12/2015 03:46 PM, weaselcat wrote:
> On Friday, 12 June 2015 at 19:36:25 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
>> It is good though that they've finally relaxed their stance a bit on
>> what's now being called "side-loading" (or as I've called it since the
>> 1980's, "Running my own freaking software on my own freaking
>> machine"). Now it appears MS has dropped to last place in that regard
>> (last I checked, they kinda let you do it, moreso than Apple used to,
>> but there's still some goofy restrictions and it appeared primarily
>> geared towards corporations with their own proprietary in-house-only
>> tools).
>
> it will never cease to amaze me that people are paying for things they
> don't even own.
>
> If you can't modify something, you don't own it - you're leasing it.

Yea. Problem is, there isn't much choice. If you need mobile internet access, then you can't vote with your wallet because they ALL do it.

I really wish PalmOS was still around. Those were well-designed, practical, easy-to-use AND non-Orwellian. Version 6 in particular was looking really nice. But Xerox's patent trolls forced Palm to botch up the Graffiti system, and then the device manufacturers effectively killed PalmOS 6 because they refused to make anything but iOS clones ('cause that's where the "buzz" was), hence the WebOS debacle. And that's how we got where we are today. :(

On 06/12/2015 04:33 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
> On 6/12/15 3:44 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
>> On 06/12/2015 07:58 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
>>>
>>> Those who are serious and willing ***and able*** to invest will buy one.
>>
>> Fixed.
>>
>>> If you want to make minimum wage,
>>
>> You've got to be fucking kidding everyone. Step out of your ivory tower
>> once in a while.
>
> Gladly, it's nice outside today!
>
>>> [...]I can guess you shouldn't buy a mac :)
>>>
>>
>> In any case, you have your sequence of events is seriously backwards
>> here.
>>
>> The correct order is:
>>
>> 1: Obtain $
>> 2: THEN Spend $
>> 3: GOTO 1
>>
>> Notice how the loop can only be primed with "Obtain", not "Spend shit
>> you don't fucking even have".
>
> Are you fucking kidding me? People who work minimum wage jobs have
> iPhones. They have credit cards. If someone has the ability to make
> above minimum wage, and all they have to do is finance the purchase of a
> mac, if they don't do it, then they have their priorities messed up.
>

Well, granted, if they have a minimum wage job *and* one of those $100+/month iPhone plans, then yea, their priorities probably are a bit borked.

> Note, I don't think everyone *can* make money if they just purchase a
> mac. I'm saying if you have the skills (and desire), and it costs you
> the risk of charging $500 on a credit card,

Which, believe it or not, not everyone can do. And even those who can, that's still, as you say, a risk.

>you should do it if all you
> can get is minimum wage work otherwise. This is exactly how people get
> ahead in life, they don't wait for handouts. People who have successful
> businesses didn't start out with magical seed capital that didn't have
> to be paid back, they started out by working hard, making do with what
> they had, sacrificing other things, learning from their mistakes, and
> building on their successes. They don't cry in the corner saying "poor
> me, if only I had X I could get ahead." Ask any person who built a company.

Strawman.

That's obviously taking things waaay off at the other extreme. Nobody's suggesting anything of that sort. Just "work with what you have" and good old-fashioned bootstrapping.

But to act like everyone can always just go out and blow hundreds any time they damn well please (regardless of potential payoff) is just plain asinine bullshit and crassly ignores the basic fact that not everyone has the same resources you're clearly taking for granted. If Joe X doesn't have $Y (that isn't already earmarked for other apparently frivolous things, like, say food and shelter), then he can't fucking invest $Y until he does have it, no matter how much the rich self-entitled douchehbags toss around their favorite fucking "handouts" strawman.

Go buy yourself 100 manufacturing plants. You should already be able to afford to BECAUSE it would make you money afterwords. Oh, wait, you can't do that? Go do it anyway and quit demanding handouts.