On 26/05/13 21:13, Paulo Pinto wrote:
> Am 26.05.2013 09:36, schrieb Walter Bright:
>> On 5/26/2013 12:03 AM, Paulo Pinto wrote:
>>> After being a Turbo Pascal heavy user, C always felt backwards to me
>>> with its
>>> weak types, lack of proper strings, modules and namespaces.
>>
>> I had the opposite experience. Being a Pascal user from the late 70's, I
>> hated Pascal's limitations. A friend loaned me K+R and it was like
>> someone opened a window. I never wrote another line of Pascal; I threw
>> it under the bus, and couldn't work up any interest in TP (which came
>> along later).
>>
>> Proper strings? Those length-prefixed ones that couldn't be longer than
>> 255 characters? Argh. C botched them too with 0 terminated ones, but at
>> least they were usable.
>>
>
> Pascal string limitations were only an issue in classic Pascal, both
> Extend Pascal its sucessors Modula-2 and so on follow a model similar to
> what D offers.
>
> Now it is too late for it, but at the time C could have stayed as
> powerful as it is while offering:
>
> - proper modules, or at least namespaces
>
> - no automatic conversions between arrays and pointers. how hard it is
> to write &a[0]?
>
> - arguments by reference, no need to check for null for every parameter
>
> - strong typed enumerations
>
> - memory allocation without requiring the developer to use sizeof
> everywhere
>
> - strings similar to what D has
>
> - proper arrays, after all the compilers for other languages always
> offered control over when bound checking code was generated
>
> In the end, same syntax, just some semantic improvements on the type
> system.
>
> But now it is too late, we only have modern C++ with its warts, or
> hopefully D, Rust, Go, C#, or something else as possible replacement.
>
> However, given that C and UNIX are one and only, it will outlive us all.

Don't forget that Pascal was only meant to be a teaching language.  That it was used for more than that says more about the other languages available at the time than it does Pascal.

Peter

On 05/26/2013 01:04 PM, Walter Bright wrote:

> Yeah, I did the 'Soccer' one.

  http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Mattel/Soccer.htm

That's before my time. :) I have played with ones similar to this though:

  http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Nintendo/Octopus.htm

Ali

On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 05:20:59PM -0700, Ali Çehreli wrote:
> On 05/26/2013 01:04 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
> 
> >Yeah, I did the 'Soccer' one.
> 
>   http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Mattel/Soccer.htm
> 
> That's before my time. :) I have played with ones similar to this though:
> 
>   http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Nintendo/Octopus.htm
[...]

Whoa. This one brings back the memories! Was this the one where you had to evade the tentacles and get to the sunken ship and back? I must've been a primary schoolboy when I played this game (never owned it though -- I used to visit my grand-uncle's electronics store and played it there).


T

-- 
When solving a problem, take care that you do not become part of the problem.

On Monday, 27 May 2013 at 01:29:12 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 05:20:59PM -0700, Ali Çehreli wrote:
>> On 05/26/2013 01:04 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
>> 
>> >Yeah, I did the 'Soccer' one.
>> 
>>   http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Mattel/Soccer.htm
>> 
>> That's before my time. :) I have played with ones similar to this though:
>> 
>>   http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Nintendo/Octopus.htm
> [...]
>
> Whoa. This one brings back the memories! Was this the one where you had
> to evade the tentacles and get to the sunken ship and back? I must've
> been a primary schoolboy when I played this game (never owned it though
> -- I used to visit my grand-uncle's electronics store and played it
> there).
>
>
> T

Oh man! My first handheld,

http://www.gameandwatch.com/screen/widescreen/manhole/index.html

On Sunday, 26 May 2013 at 19:49:44 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
> On Sun, 26 May 2013 13:18:32 +0200
> Paulo Pinto <pjmlp@progtools.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Did you had the pleasure to write portable C or C++ code across
>> multiple operating systems and vendors in the mid 90's?
>> 
>
> Luckily, no. For me it was just Win9x and DOS (using that awesome 32-bit
> extender DOOM and every other game of the time used, forget the name.
> DOS4GW?). And it was more mid-to-late 90's for me. (And then a little
> bit of PalmOS around 2000 or so.)
>
>> Welcome to #ifdef spaghetti code and reluctance of using certain features due to inconsistent support.

Back in 2000-2001 I was responsible for making a C codebase work across HP-UX, Solaris, Aix, Linux and Windows NT/2000, while using the OS vendors C compilers.

Lots of fun with C standard compliance, this is where my #ifdef spaghetti code experience comes from. And the last time I really used C at work, before I moved definitely into C++/JVM/.NET land.

When I left the company in 2003, they were starting the transition to .NET, by that time I was already writing C# code with C++/CLI bindings to the "legacy" stuff.

--
Paulo

On Mon, 27 May 2013 08:22:02 +0200
"Paulo Pinto" <pjmlp@progtools.org> wrote:

> On Monday, 27 May 2013 at 01:29:12 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> > On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 05:20:59PM -0700, Ali Çehreli wrote:
> >> On 05/26/2013 01:04 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
> >> 
> >> >Yeah, I did the 'Soccer' one.
> >> 
> >>   http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Mattel/Soccer.htm
> >> 
> >> That's before my time. :) I have played with ones similar to this though:
> >> 
> >>   http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Nintendo/Octopus.htm
> > [...]
> >
> > Whoa. This one brings back the memories! Was this the one where
> > you had
> > to evade the tentacles and get to the sunken ship and back? I
> > must've
> > been a primary schoolboy when I played this game (never owned
> > it though
> > -- I used to visit my grand-uncle's electronics store and
> > played it
> > there).
> >
> >
> > T
> 
> Oh man! My first handheld,
> 
> http://www.gameandwatch.com/screen/widescreen/manhole/index.html
> 

These were my first:

http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Tiger/Pinball.htm http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Tiger/ElectronicFootball.htm http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Tiger/DoubleDragon.htm http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Tiger/NinjaGaiden.htm

(I like this thread, it makes me feel comparatively young ;) )

I played the heck out of those pinball and football ones. Strange though, I had totally forgotten about those two until browsing that site just now.

I also had the Castlevania II, MegaMan 2, and some racing one from a different company, not sure who. No idea what happened to any of them. (The watch one I remember I lost a loooong time ago.)

Many years later I participated in a very fun little "Make an LCD-handheld style game" homebrew competition with a GBA entry (got third place): http://pdroms.de/files/gameboyadvance/my-robot-v1-0

Am 27.05.2013 09:13, schrieb Nick Sabalausky:
> On Mon, 27 May 2013 08:22:02 +0200
> "Paulo Pinto" <pjmlp@progtools.org> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, 27 May 2013 at 01:29:12 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
>>> On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 05:20:59PM -0700, Ali Çehreli wrote:
>>>> On 05/26/2013 01:04 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, I did the 'Soccer' one.
>>>>
>>>>    http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Mattel/Soccer.htm
>>>>
>>>> That's before my time. :) I have played with ones similar to
>>>> this though:
>>>>
>>>>    http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Nintendo/Octopus.htm
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> Whoa. This one brings back the memories! Was this the one where
>>> you had
>>> to evade the tentacles and get to the sunken ship and back? I
>>> must've
>>> been a primary schoolboy when I played this game (never owned
>>> it though
>>> -- I used to visit my grand-uncle's electronics store and
>>> played it
>>> there).
>>>
>>>
>>> T
>>
>> Oh man! My first handheld,
>>
>> http://www.gameandwatch.com/screen/widescreen/manhole/index.html
>>
>
> These were my first:
>
> http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Tiger/Pinball.htm
> http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Tiger/ElectronicFootball.htm
> http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Tiger/DoubleDragon.htm
> http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Tiger/NinjaGaiden.htm
>
> (I like this thread, it makes me feel comparatively young ;) )
>
> I played the heck out of those pinball and football ones. Strange
> though, I had totally forgotten about those two until browsing that site
> just now.
>
> I also had the Castlevania II, MegaMan 2, and some racing one from a
> different company, not sure who. No idea what happened to any of them.
> (The watch one I remember I lost a loooong time ago.)
>
> Many years later I participated in a very fun little "Make an
> LCD-handheld style game" homebrew competition with a GBA entry (got
> third place): http://pdroms.de/files/gameboyadvance/my-robot-v1-0
>

Very interesting, thanks for sharing.

On Sat, 25 May 2013 23:50:28 +0100, Klaim - Joël Lamotte <mjklaim@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think this have not been posted yet around here but might be interesting
> to the D community as it is actually criticizing several languages
> including D but with an interesting aproach:
>
> http://sebastiansylvan.wordpress.com/2013/05/25/language-design-deal-breakers/

So it seems D doesn't fit the bill due to point #3..

"Null pointer exceptions have no business in modern languages. Getting rid of them /costs no performance/, and statically eliminates the one big remaining cause of runtime crashes that we still see in otherwise “modern” languages."

/emphasis/ mine.  Is it actually true that you can "remove" null pointer exceptions at no runtime cost?

It's possible if you remove pointers from the language.
It's possible if you statically require that any pointer/reference is initialised at declaration.

But, is it otherwise possible?  Because both of these options are too restrictive for a systems programming language.

Point #4 might also be slightly at odds with D's current GC, but that can/will improve, eventually (bigger fish to fry).

Point #5 is likewise an area where D can/will improve, eventually (bigger fish to fry)

R

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 7:37 AM, Regan Heath <regan@netmail.co.nz> wrote:

> On Sat, 25 May 2013 23:50:28 +0100, Klaim - Joël Lamotte <
> mjklaim@gmail.com> wrote:
> /emphasis/ mine.  Is it actually true that you can "remove" null pointer
> exceptions at no runtime cost?
>
> It's possible if you remove pointers from the language.
> It's possible if you statically require that any pointer/reference is
> initialised at declaration.
>
> But, is it otherwise possible?  Because both of these options are too restrictive for a systems programming language.
>
>
>
The Rust programming language managed to do that, and it is a systems
language (rust-lang.org).