I'm bad at meeting deadlines.  Partly because I mismanage my time, but a large part of it is also because being a perfectionist, I never know when to _stop working on something_.  After nearly two years in development, I think I'm ready to call MiniD 2 "gold."

http://www.dsource.org/projects/minid

I write lots of docs.  Please read them.

= Oh wow, an interpreted version of D! =

NO!  That was the aim _three years ago_ but by now it's a completely different language.  Please read the docs before you form your opinions on what it is :)

= What's changed since MiniD 1? =

Lots.  It's enough to say that it's practically a different language. To be honest, I don't even consider MiniD 1 - either the language or the implementation thereof - anything more than a crude, unfinished work.  MiniD 2 is what I consider to be the first _actual_ language/implementation.

The MiniD 2 reference implementation is far more mature, complete, and efficient than its predecessor.  It has been reimplemented pretty much from scratch and now features its own heap and GC separate from D's. While this does incur a bit of a hit on the terseness of the native API, it also manifests itself in a frankly _incredible_ increase in performance, as well as features that would have been difficult or impossible to implement using the native GC (like weak references and class finalizers).

What kind of performance, you ask?  Well, almost every test I've run kicks the crap out of Python, and is more in the ballpark of Lua.  The only tests that don't quite measure up are those which are GC-heavy. The current implementation uses a simple mark-and-sweep GC, but that is one of my main development priorities after this release.  If I can reach Lua's performance - awesome!

The API is much more like Lua's now, though with some nice perks due to overloading that aren't possible in a C API.  Writing code for what is essentially a stack language is kind of nice, in some ways.  Being such a departure from what most people are used to, though, it can take some getting used to.

The API is also much more "there is one way to do it."  The old MiniD 1 - and early MiniD 2 - APIs sometimes had several, inconsistent methods of acquiring information.  This has been entirely done away with.  That being said, D's current protection mechanisms (and DMD's forward reference issues) are woefully inadequate for dividing up the API the way I want to, forcing almost all of the public API functions into a single module.  Sorry for that.

= I'm bearophile, and I don't think it performs as well as <X>, and isn't similar enough to Python. =

OK.  Give me some benchmarks, and I'll see what's taking so long.  As for the language style?  Tough luck ;)  I admit the standard library probably doesn't have as many lazy-evaluation functions and datatypes as it could, but that can certainly change.  I am open to suggestions!

= Why do I need it? =

I don't know!  Maybe you're just interested in learning new languages.
 Maybe you've got a legitimate need for a scripting language in one of
the D apps you're writing.  Whatever.  I can't tell you why you need
it.  Only you know that.

For a high-level, pseudo-philosophical introduction to the language, see http://www.dsource.org/projects/minid/wiki/Introduction2

I recommend you read the spec and the language tutorial if you're wondering what the language is all about.  _Then_ can you tell me what you do and don't like.

= What prerequisites do I need, and how do I install it? =

D1 with Tango 0.99.8, currently.  That's about it, as far as the core language and its standard libraries are concerned.

Installation instructions are available here: http://www.dsource.org/projects/minid/wiki/Installation  I plan on putting some more detailed docs up especially w.r.t. feti's sandbox script, since I haven't been able to get some configurations to work.

If you're having trouble installing a D compiler or build tool or Tango, I'm sorry, but I just don't have the time or patience to help you install the prerequisites.  I have spent far too much time helping others install those and it's just.. well, it's not my fault that the D toolchain is currently so fractured and hard-to-use, and I've kind of lost the will to help anyone else.  Sorry :\

MiniD works fine with DMD and LDC.  GDC is too old to compile it.  Bug David Friedman or Arthur about that.  :|

= How do I <x>? =

Please ask me.  Here on the newsgroups is OK, but for more long-term conversations, *please* sign up for a dsource account and post your questions to the MiniD dsource forum (http://www.dsource.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=94).  If you don't have a dsource account already, why not? ;)  If you're one of those people who refuses to post on one of those "dirty, slow, inefficient" web forums, well, I guess you're not getting any help!  Or you could just email me, but by doing that, you'll be depriving anyone else from seeing your question and the resulting answer.  Your choice.

I love writing documentation, and if you find any part of it inadequate or confusing, *let me know*.  If there is a particular style of documentation you respond particularly well to, *let me know*.  I'm pretty responsive to communication, so if you've got questions, ideas, suggestions, comments, flames - WHATEVER - please let me know.

= You're drunk, aren't you? =

A little.

= What else? =

Nothing!  Really.  Except maybe if you're interested in 3D graphics, there _are_ SDL and OpenGL bindings for MiniD already.  <_<

= I want to help! =

Then submit a patch!  I have to admit, I'm a bit like Walter in that I might not accept your code unless I review it, know you personally to be a skilled developer, and/or believe that it is a worthwhile addition.  However, "unofficial" patches can be just as useful to others as core language features.  Development is fun!  Contribute!

= What are your plans for the future? =

Some performance improvements; a better GC would be nice.  Haven't done much GC research so I'd like to get into that.  Maybe a JIT compiler a little further off.  More addon libraries, definitely!

That's all.  I don't think I'll have any kind of versioning scheme save for the most important revisions.  Other than that, I think I'll just base the "versions" off of the SVN revision that they correspond to.  It's not like any other D library really has any kind of reliable release schedule :P

Any questions, just ask, please!

On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 19:31:33 -0400, Jarrett Billingsley <jarrett.billingsley@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> = I'm bearophile, and I don't think it performs as well as <X>, and
> isn't similar enough to Python. =
>

lol!


> Any questions, just ask, please!


mdsh?  But I'll still give it a look.  I haven't learned a new language in a while, I'm due.

-Steve

On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 9:06 PM, Steven Schveighoffer<schveiguy@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 19:31:33 -0400, Jarrett Billingsley <jarrett.billingsley@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> = I'm bearophile, and I don't think it performs as well as <X>, and isn't similar enough to Python. =
>>
>
> lol!
>
>
>> Any questions, just ask, please!
>
>
> mdsh?  But I'll still give it a look.  I haven't learned a new language in a while, I'm due.

MDCL is the current closest thing.  But mdsh is on the menu!  GOD I can't wait to do shellscripting without the ridiculous legacy of shellscript.

Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
> I'm bad at meeting deadlines.  Partly because I mismanage my time, but
> a large part of it is also because being a perfectionist, I never know
> when to _stop working on something_.  After nearly two years in
> development, I think I'm ready to call MiniD 2 "gold."
> 
> http://www.dsource.org/projects/minid
> 
> I write lots of docs.  Please read them.
> 
> = Oh wow, an interpreted version of D! =
> 
> NO!  That was the aim _three years ago_ but by now it's a completely
> different language.  Please read the docs before you form your
> opinions on what it is :)
> 
> = What's changed since MiniD 1? =
> 
> Lots.  It's enough to say that it's practically a different language.
> To be honest, I don't even consider MiniD 1 - either the language or
> the implementation thereof - anything more than a crude, unfinished
> work.  MiniD 2 is what I consider to be the first _actual_
> language/implementation.
> 
> The MiniD 2 reference implementation is far more mature, complete, and
> efficient than its predecessor.  It has been reimplemented pretty much
> from scratch and now features its own heap and GC separate from D's.
> While this does incur a bit of a hit on the terseness of the native
> API, it also manifests itself in a frankly _incredible_ increase in
> performance, as well as features that would have been difficult or
> impossible to implement using the native GC (like weak references and
> class finalizers).
> 
> What kind of performance, you ask?  Well, almost every test I've run
> kicks the crap out of Python, and is more in the ballpark of Lua.  The
> only tests that don't quite measure up are those which are GC-heavy.
> The current implementation uses a simple mark-and-sweep GC, but that
> is one of my main development priorities after this release.  If I can
> reach Lua's performance - awesome!
> 
> The API is much more like Lua's now, though with some nice perks due
> to overloading that aren't possible in a C API.  Writing code for what
> is essentially a stack language is kind of nice, in some ways.  Being
> such a departure from what most people are used to, though, it can
> take some getting used to.
> 
> The API is also much more "there is one way to do it."  The old MiniD
> 1 - and early MiniD 2 - APIs sometimes had several, inconsistent
> methods of acquiring information.  This has been entirely done away
> with.  That being said, D's current protection mechanisms (and DMD's
> forward reference issues) are woefully inadequate for dividing up the
> API the way I want to, forcing almost all of the public API functions
> into a single module.  Sorry for that.
> 
> = I'm bearophile, and I don't think it performs as well as <X>, and
> isn't similar enough to Python. =
> 
> OK.  Give me some benchmarks, and I'll see what's taking so long.  As
> for the language style?  Tough luck ;)  I admit the standard library
> probably doesn't have as many lazy-evaluation functions and datatypes
> as it could, but that can certainly change.  I am open to suggestions!
> 
> = Why do I need it? =
> 
> I don't know!  Maybe you're just interested in learning new languages.
>  Maybe you've got a legitimate need for a scripting language in one of
> the D apps you're writing.  Whatever.  I can't tell you why you need
> it.  Only you know that.
> 
> For a high-level, pseudo-philosophical introduction to the language,
> see http://www.dsource.org/projects/minid/wiki/Introduction2
> 
> I recommend you read the spec and the language tutorial if you're
> wondering what the language is all about.  _Then_ can you tell me what
> you do and don't like.
> 
> = What prerequisites do I need, and how do I install it? =
> 
> D1 with Tango 0.99.8, currently.  That's about it, as far as the core
> language and its standard libraries are concerned.
> 
> Installation instructions are available here:
> http://www.dsource.org/projects/minid/wiki/Installation  I plan on
> putting some more detailed docs up especially w.r.t. feti's sandbox
> script, since I haven't been able to get some configurations to work.
> 
> If you're having trouble installing a D compiler or build tool or
> Tango, I'm sorry, but I just don't have the time or patience to help
> you install the prerequisites.  I have spent far too much time helping
> others install those and it's just.. well, it's not my fault that the
> D toolchain is currently so fractured and hard-to-use, and I've kind
> of lost the will to help anyone else.  Sorry :\
> 
> MiniD works fine with DMD and LDC.  GDC is too old to compile it.  Bug
> David Friedman or Arthur about that.  :|
> 
> = How do I <x>? =
> 
> Please ask me.  Here on the newsgroups is OK, but for more long-term
> conversations, *please* sign up for a dsource account and post your
> questions to the MiniD dsource forum
> (http://www.dsource.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=94).  If you don't have
> a dsource account already, why not? ;)  If you're one of those people
> who refuses to post on one of those "dirty, slow, inefficient" web
> forums, well, I guess you're not getting any help!  Or you could just
> email me, but by doing that, you'll be depriving anyone else from
> seeing your question and the resulting answer.  Your choice.
> 
> I love writing documentation, and if you find any part of it
> inadequate or confusing, *let me know*.  If there is a particular
> style of documentation you respond particularly well to, *let me
> know*.  I'm pretty responsive to communication, so if you've got
> questions, ideas, suggestions, comments, flames - WHATEVER - please
> let me know.
> 
> = You're drunk, aren't you? =
> 
> A little.
> 
> = What else? =
> 
> Nothing!  Really.  Except maybe if you're interested in 3D graphics,
> there _are_ SDL and OpenGL bindings for MiniD already.  <_<
> 
> = I want to help! =
> 
> Then submit a patch!  I have to admit, I'm a bit like Walter in that I
> might not accept your code unless I review it, know you personally to
> be a skilled developer, and/or believe that it is a worthwhile
> addition.  However, "unofficial" patches can be just as useful to
> others as core language features.  Development is fun!  Contribute!
> 
> = What are your plans for the future? =
> 
> Some performance improvements; a better GC would be nice.  Haven't
> done much GC research so I'd like to get into that.  Maybe a JIT
> compiler a little further off.  More addon libraries, definitely!
> 
> That's all.  I don't think I'll have any kind of versioning scheme
> save for the most important revisions.  Other than that, I think I'll
> just base the "versions" off of the SVN revision that they correspond
> to.  It's not like any other D library really has any kind of reliable
> release schedule :P
> 
> Any questions, just ask, please!

Awesome; thanks! How's its standard library file manipulation support and Windows registry handling? THis could be the perfect build scripting tool...

"Jarrett Billingsley" <jarrett.billingsley@gmail.com> wrote in message news:mailman.264.1245108702.13405.digitalmars-d-announce@puremagic.com...
>
> I recommend you read the spec and the language tutorial if you're wondering what the language is all about.
>

Where is the language tutorial?

> = You're drunk, aren't you? =
>
> A little.
>

lol. Watch out for the localized glitches in gravity :)

Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
> 
> What kind of performance, you ask?  Well, almost every test I've run
> kicks the crap out of Python, and is more in the ballpark of Lua.  The
> only tests that don't quite measure up are those which are GC-heavy.

How does it compare to stackless python at doing the tasks stackless was designed for and is good at? If not then have you ever considered such design goals? (Disclaimer: I haven't looked into pretty much anything about minid)

Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
> Any questions, just ask, please!

Congrats on finally making a release! The only question I have really, is do you plan on making some release binaries/libraries? You mentioned about the tool chain being difficult to use, it might be nice if there were some premade binaries/libraries people could use to play with mdcl/minid.

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 1:55 AM, Robert Fraser<fraserofthenight@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Any questions, just ask, please!
>
> Awesome; thanks! How's its standard library file manipulation support and

Simple, but you can still do quite a bit.  The IO lib:

http://www.dsource.org/projects/minid/wiki/StdLib2/IOLib

has a good amount of functionality for basic filesystem and path manipulation.  If you find it lacking, tell me what you'd like to see :)

> Windows registry handling? THis could be the perfect build scripting tool...

No registry handling, but that might be a nice addon library.

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 8:05 AM, Tim Matthews<tim.matthews7@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
>>
>> What kind of performance, you ask?  Well, almost every test I've run kicks the crap out of Python, and is more in the ballpark of Lua.  The only tests that don't quite measure up are those which are GC-heavy.
>
> How does it compare to stackless python at doing the tasks stackless was designed for and is good at? If not then have you ever considered such design goals? (Disclaimer: I haven't looked into pretty much anything about minid)

I'm not sure.  MiniD's coroutines are basic, but are the foundation on which more complex behavior (schedulers, tasklets, pseudothreads, continuations etc.) can be built.

I'd be interested in seeing maybe some Stackless benchmarks.  I could port them to MiniD and see how they fare.

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 3:58 AM, Nick Sabalausky<a@a.a> wrote:
> "Jarrett Billingsley" <jarrett.billingsley@gmail.com> wrote in message news:mailman.264.1245108702.13405.digitalmars-d-announce@puremagic.com...
>>
>> I recommend you read the spec and the language tutorial if you're wondering what the language is all about.
>>
>
> Where is the language tutorial?

On the front page, in the section marked "language tutorial".  ;)

http://www.dsource.org/projects/minid#LanguageTutorial

Some of the later pages aren't yet complete, but I've got nothing but time.

>> = You're drunk, aren't you? =
>>
>> A little.
>>
>
> lol. Watch out for the localized glitches in gravity :)

Hehe :)