Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
> With four or five people having voiced concerns over the future of D
> in the past week or so, what's the busiest discussion?
> 
> int.nan, of course.
> 
> Come on.  Get with the program.  Enough already with the bikeshed
> bullshit.  There are far more important issues at hand.


Although I definitely feel your pain, I am not worried about the impact these kinds of discussions will have on D development. If Walter & co. were among the most active participants, I would be deeply worried indeed, but luckily they aren't. Hopefully they spend their time on more important stuff.

Do you know what worries me, though? The fact that whenever a potential D user comes to digitalmars.com/d and clicks "Forum" he/she sees two things: Bikeshed stuff or "D is doomed".

Walter: Please, please, please direct new users towards D.learn instead of this group!

I'm starting to think one should be required pass some D programming test to be able to acess this NG, to sift out those who are new enough to potentially be scared off. Instead of having to read distorted text in a CAPTCHA, one would have to decipher a piece of complex template code or something.

-Lars

2009/6/29 MIURA Masahiro <echochamber@gmail.com>:
> Yigal Chripun wrote:
>> do not tell other people what to think and what to write. this is not
>> china and you are not the great firewall.
>> grow up.
>
> Apparently you don't share Jarrett's consciousness of the problem that more important issues are left undiscussed.

Exactly.  It's not necessarily that I have a problem with people discussing int.nan.  It's when people are discussing int.nan to death when _there is a very real possibility that D has no future_.  And when people bring up valid, uncomfortable truths and the resulting discussion instead degrades into random, minor issues that have nothing to do with the original post.

Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
> 2009/6/29 MIURA Masahiro <echochamber@gmail.com>:
>> Yigal Chripun wrote:
>>> do not tell other people what to think and what to write. this is not
>>> china and you are not the great firewall.
>>> grow up.
>> Apparently you don't share Jarrett's consciousness of the problem
>> that more important issues are left undiscussed.
> 
> Exactly.  It's not necessarily that I have a problem with people
> discussing int.nan.  It's when people are discussing int.nan to death
> when _there is a very real possibility that D has no future_.  And
> when people bring up valid, uncomfortable truths and the resulting
> discussion instead degrades into random, minor issues that have
> nothing to do with the original post.

People tend to ignore problems that haven't touched them personally. Maybe they will fix themselves?

My view is that Jarrett wasn't trying to firewall anyone, but rather point their attention at more important issues that relatively fresh D users choose not to see. The same issues are making some long-time D users think about giving up. I'm not only talking about Jarrett. Stay for a few whiles to D-related IRC channels and you'll see more instances of this case.

Please don't confuse these voices with the usual trolling/complaining D newcomer with their "omg but D doesn't offer anything more than C++ and it's not evolving at Warp 7!!!11eleven", like "superdude"'s recent post. The folks I'm talking about have invested considerable amount of time in D and simply wouldn't like to be on a sinking ship. They probably love D and see no real alternative to switch to, which makes them even more frustrated :P

And well, "Pick one of the items you find the most interesting, and work on it!" doesn't apply e.g. to improving Walter <-> Tango communication.


-- 
Tomasz Stachowiak
http://h3.team0xf.com/
h3/h3r3tic on #D freenode

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 1:37 PM, Tom S<h3r3tic@remove.mat.uni.torun.pl> wrote:
> Please don't confuse these voices with the usual trolling/complaining D newcomer with their "omg but D doesn't offer anything more than C++ and it's not evolving at Warp 7!!!11eleven", like "superdude"'s recent post. The folks I'm talking about have invested considerable amount of time in D and simply wouldn't like to be on a sinking ship. They probably love D and see no real alternative to switch to, which makes them even more frustrated :P

Yes!  FFS!  I *don't* want D to die.  I've used D for five years and wouldn't want to use anything else.  It's beyond frustrating to have used it for so long and to have seen so relatively little improvement in the implementation quality or the community/library situation.

And before anyone accuses me of not contributing?  Um, how about maintaining a large scripting language and its mounds of documentation for the last three years?  How about having reported dozens of bugs not only in the compiler but also in several third-party libraries? How about helping all sorts of newcomers on IRC and d.learn?  I challenge *anyone* to say that I don't fucking contribute to this community.  I've invested more time into D and my D projects than anything else I've ever done.

MIURA Masahiro wrote:
> Yigal Chripun wrote:
>> do not tell other people what to think and what to write. this is not
>> china and you are not the great firewall.
>> grow up.
> 
> Apparently you don't share Jarrett's consciousness of the problem
> that more important issues are left undiscussed.
> Freedom may be paramount, but I'm not sure if D's situation would
> improve just by letting people write what they want to.
> 
> I don't have a clearcut answer.  Perhaps there should be some kind of soft leadership or orientation?
> 
> (Reminds me of Guido van Rossum jokingly calling himself a kind of dictator.  And his Python is a successful language.)

Your conclusion is false.
I didn't share my opinion regarding Jarrett's "consciousness of the
problem" at all. That's entirely your assumption.

If Jarrett sees some discussion topic being neglected than by all means he should voice his opinion.

there are two options here:
positive option - "let's talk about subject X". <- this is productive.
negative option - "you must stop discussing subject Y". <- this is not.

Jarrett chose the negative option for which I voiced my criticism, that is all.

Yigal Chripun wrote:
> MIURA Masahiro wrote:
>> Yigal Chripun wrote:
>>> do not tell other people what to think and what to write. this is not
>>> china and you are not the great firewall.
>>> grow up.
>> Apparently you don't share Jarrett's consciousness of the problem
>> that more important issues are left undiscussed.
>> Freedom may be paramount, but I'm not sure if D's situation would
>> improve just by letting people write what they want to.
>>
>> I don't have a clearcut answer.  Perhaps there should be some kind of soft leadership or orientation?
>>
>> (Reminds me of Guido van Rossum jokingly calling himself a kind of dictator.  And his Python is a successful language.)
> 
> Your conclusion is false.
> I didn't share my opinion regarding Jarrett's "consciousness of the
> problem" at all. That's entirely your assumption.
> 
> If Jarrett sees some discussion topic being neglected than by all means he should voice his opinion.
> 
> there are two options here:
> positive option - "let's talk about subject X". <- this is productive.
> negative option - "you must stop discussing subject Y". <- this is not.
> 
> Jarrett chose the negative option for which I voiced my criticism, that is all.

http://www.jfbillingsley.com/blog/?p=53


-- 
Tomasz Stachowiak
http://h3.team0xf.com/
h3/h3r3tic on #D freenode

Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
> 2009/6/29 MIURA Masahiro <echochamber@gmail.com>:
>> Yigal Chripun wrote:
>>> do not tell other people what to think and what to write. this is not
>>> china and you are not the great firewall.
>>> grow up.
>> Apparently you don't share Jarrett's consciousness of the problem
>> that more important issues are left undiscussed.
> 
> Exactly.  It's not necessarily that I have a problem with people
> discussing int.nan.  It's when people are discussing int.nan to death
> when _there is a very real possibility that D has no future_.  And
> when people bring up valid, uncomfortable truths and the resulting
> discussion instead degrades into random, minor issues that have
> nothing to do with the original post.

I disagree with the above.
first, people have a prerogative to discuss whatever they want to death.  don't participate if you don't like it.
second, saying that D has no future is illogical - the spec is open source and there is a fully open source compiler for it (LDC), so whatever happens it's always possible to just for it as D++ or communityD or whatever.
thirdly, D has a dictator, Walter Bright, which decides its fate and we have almost zero influence on this.

your scripting language, while awesome, has little bearing on the future of the D language itself.

IMHO, the Tango vs. Phobos licensing issue is the biggest bikeshed color problem in the D realm and the only people that can solve it are the tango devs and walter and co. of which Neither are willing to budge.
since I have no power to help solve this problem, I see no need to waste my time/energy on it. I see therefore only two options to proceed:
a. wait until it is solved by the relevant parties.
b. join a fork effort.

Yigal Chripun wrote:
> Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
>> 2009/6/29 MIURA Masahiro <echochamber@gmail.com>:
>>> Yigal Chripun wrote:
>>>> do not tell other people what to think and what to write. this is not
>>>> china and you are not the great firewall.
>>>> grow up.
>>> Apparently you don't share Jarrett's consciousness of the problem
>>> that more important issues are left undiscussed.
>>
>> Exactly.  It's not necessarily that I have a problem with people
>> discussing int.nan.  It's when people are discussing int.nan to death
>> when _there is a very real possibility that D has no future_.  And
>> when people bring up valid, uncomfortable truths and the resulting
>> discussion instead degrades into random, minor issues that have
>> nothing to do with the original post.
> 
> I disagree with the above.
> first, people have a prerogative to discuss whatever they want to death.  don't participate if you don't like it.


> second, saying that D has no future is illogical - the spec is open source and there is a fully open source compiler for it (LDC), so whatever happens it's always possible to just for it as D++ or communityD or whatever.

Modula-3 has a future!


> thirdly, D has a dictator, Walter Bright, which decides its fate and we have almost zero influence on this.

I thought "The needs and contributions of the D programming community form the direction it goes.".


> your scripting language, while awesome, has little bearing on the future of the D language itself.

So have many other projects. Let's stop writing them and all focus on making a compiler, IDE and a debugger for a language used by no one... wait, what?
But what you're saying is true - it has little bearing on D - unfortunately so, as it's one of the biggest and oldest projects using it. One would think that a successful product would be shaped upon feedback from its most important customers.


> IMHO, the Tango vs. Phobos licensing issue is the biggest bikeshed color problem in the D realm and the only people that can solve it are the tango devs and walter and co. of which Neither are willing to budge.

Uhhh... try listening to Tango folks sometimes. They really have tried.


> since I have no power to help solve this problem, I see no need to waste my time/energy on it. I see therefore only two options to proceed:
> a. wait until it is solved by the relevant parties.
> b. join a fork effort.

a) Won't happen on its own. The relevant parties must be informed by *someone*
b) I think we're all trying to avoid this one.


-- 
Tomasz Stachowiak
http://h3.team0xf.com/
h3/h3r3tic on #D freenode

Tom S wrote:

> Yigal Chripun wrote:
(snip)
>> IMHO, the Tango vs. Phobos licensing issue is the biggest bikeshed color problem in the D realm and the only people that can solve it are the tango devs and walter and co. of which Neither are willing to budge.
> 
> Uhhh... try listening to Tango folks sometimes. They really have tried.
>

If you can forgive my ignorance, what is the current Tango/Phobos problem you see and refer to here? Is it related to D1 or also concerns a possible future Tango D2?

Tom S wrote:
> Yigal Chripun wrote:
> 
>> thirdly, D has a dictator, Walter Bright, which decides its fate and we have almost zero influence on this.
> 
> I thought "The needs and contributions of the D programming community form the direction it goes.".
> 
who told you that?
> 
>> your scripting language, while awesome, has little bearing on the future of the D language itself.
> 
> So have many other projects. Let's stop writing them and all focus on making a compiler, IDE and a debugger for a language used by no one... wait, what?
> But what you're saying is true - it has little bearing on D - unfortunately so, as it's one of the biggest and oldest projects using it. One would think that a successful product would be shaped upon feedback from its most important customers.
> 
> 
>> IMHO, the Tango vs. Phobos licensing issue is the biggest bikeshed color problem in the D realm and the only people that can solve it are the tango devs and walter and co. of which Neither are willing to budge.
> 
> Uhhh... try listening to Tango folks sometimes. They really have tried.
> 
> 
>> since I have no power to help solve this problem, I see no need to waste my time/energy on it. I see therefore only two options to proceed:
>> a. wait until it is solved by the relevant parties.
>> b. join a fork effort.
> 
> a) Won't happen on its own. The relevant parties must be informed by *someone*
> b) I think we're all trying to avoid this one.
> 
> 
I see no reason to avoid option b. it is a valid option. this fear of forking is silly IMO, since forking brought a lot of good to the world. one example that comes to mind is compiz vs. Beryl.

here's my take on this:
when people have a headache they usually just take an aspirin to stop the pain instead of taking care of the root cause of that headache.

I see the same thing here. people keep complaining about all the various symptoms: two incompatible standard libraries, toolchain issues, legacy linker, license issues, D2 is a moving target, stability, etc..

what is missing in all of those is a specification for the development process of D. until this is properly defined and designed, there will little progress with any of the core issues IMO.
this is exactly what separates successful languages like Python, C#, Java, even C++ from D.