Yigal Chripun wrote:
> Tom S wrote:
>> Yigal Chripun wrote:
>>
>>> thirdly, D has a dictator, Walter Bright, which decides its fate and we have almost zero influence on this.
>>
>> I thought "The needs and contributions of the D programming community form the direction it goes.".
>>
> who told you that?

http://digitalmars.com/d/


-- 
Tomasz Stachowiak
http://h3.team0xf.com/
h3/h3r3tic on #D freenode

Lutger wrote:
> Tom S wrote:
> 
>> Yigal Chripun wrote:
> (snip)
>>> IMHO, the Tango vs. Phobos licensing issue is the biggest bikeshed color
>>> problem in the D realm and the only people that can solve it are the
>>> tango devs and walter and co. of which Neither are willing to budge.
>> Uhhh... try listening to Tango folks sometimes. They really have tried.
>>
> 
> If you can forgive my ignorance, what is the current Tango/Phobos problem you see and refer to here? Is it related to D1 or also concerns a possible  future Tango D2?

I'm mostly a Tango user, not its developer, so I might be misinformed, but there doesn't seem to be any licensing issue except a conceptional one. The bottom of the following thread has some info: http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/Any_chance_to_call_Tango_as_Extended_Standard_Library_82239.html

As for other issues - there's very little communication between the 'D Team' and the 'Tango Team'. Much could be learned and borrowed from it, but you don't see that in Phobos 2. Looks like we're going to end up with two 'utility libraries' that are not compatible with one another and instead of complementing each other, they offer ways to do the same things in a slightly different manner.

IIRC, Tango devs claim that its runtime is better than druntime, which also only supports DMD at the moment. And apparently, there's been very little contact with Sean lately, so it's a case of 'us' vs 'them' again.

But that's just how I've subjectively received the topic so please take it with a grain of salt.


-- 
Tomasz Stachowiak
http://h3.team0xf.com/
h3/h3r3tic on #D freenode

Tom S wrote:
> Yigal Chripun wrote:
>> Tom S wrote:
>>> Yigal Chripun wrote:
>>>
>>>> thirdly, D has a dictator, Walter Bright, which decides its fate and we have almost zero influence on this.
>>>
>>> I thought "The needs and contributions of the D programming community form the direction it goes.".
>>>
>> who told you that?
> 
> http://digitalmars.com/d/
> 
> 
don't believe everything you read online..
http://www.digitalmars.com/d/2.0/dbc.html (contracts and inheritance)

"Tom S" <h3r3tic@remove.mat.uni.torun.pl> wrote in message news:h2bfaa$1hlm$1@digitalmars.com...
> Lutger wrote:
>> Tom S wrote:
>>
>>> Yigal Chripun wrote:
>> (snip)
>>>> IMHO, the Tango vs. Phobos licensing issue is the biggest bikeshed
>>>> color
>>>> problem in the D realm and the only people that can solve it are the
>>>> tango devs and walter and co. of which Neither are willing to budge.
>>> Uhhh... try listening to Tango folks sometimes. They really have tried.
>>>
>>
>> If you can forgive my ignorance, what is the current Tango/Phobos problem you see and refer to here? Is it related to D1 or also concerns a possible  future Tango D2?
>
> I'm mostly a Tango user, not its developer, so I might be misinformed, but there doesn't seem to be any licensing issue except a conceptional one. The bottom of the following thread has some info: http://www.digitalmars.com/d/archives/digitalmars/D/Any_chance_to_call_Tango_as_Extended_Standard_Library_82239.html
>
> As for other issues - there's very little communication between the 'D Team' and the 'Tango Team'. Much could be learned and borrowed from it, but you don't see that in Phobos 2. Looks like we're going to end up with two 'utility libraries' that are not compatible with one another and instead of complementing each other, they offer ways to do the same things in a slightly different manner.
>

Andrei had some reason (license-related, IIRC) for deliberately not looking at Tango at all. Maybe that's the license issue being referred to? (I'm about as in-the-dark about it as you.)

> IIRC, Tango devs claim that its runtime is better than druntime, which also only supports DMD at the moment. And apparently, there's been very little contact with Sean lately, so it's a case of 'us' vs 'them' again.
>

Can anyone in-the-know comment on this? (Also, I thought tango runtime == druntime? At least for D2.)

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 7:23 PM, Nick Sabalausky<a@a.a> wrote:

> Andrei had some reason (license-related, IIRC) for deliberately not looking
> at Tango at all. Maybe that's the license issue being referred to? (I'm
> about as in-the-dark about it as you.)

I know _Walter_ had a license-related reason for deliberately not looking at Tango.  I don't know about Andrei, but I can't shake the feeling that the falling-out between Andrei and Kris (the one that made Andrei leave the NGs for over a year) has something to do with it.

>> IIRC, Tango devs claim that its runtime is better than druntime, which also only supports DMD at the moment. And apparently, there's been very little contact with Sean lately, so it's a case of 'us' vs 'them' again.
>>
>
> Can anyone in-the-know comment on this? (Also, I thought tango runtime ==
> druntime? At least for D2.)

I was under that impression too..?

On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 23:05:29 +0200, Tom S wrote:

>> thirdly, D has a dictator, Walter Bright, which decides its fate and we have almost zero influence on this.
> 
> I thought "The needs and contributions of the D programming community form the direction it goes.".

LOL  ... yeah, right.

-- 
Derek Parnell
Melbourne, Australia
skype: derek.j.parnell

== Quote from Tom S (h3r3tic@remove.mat.uni.torun.pl)'s article
>
> IIRC, Tango devs claim that its runtime is better than druntime, which also only supports DMD at the moment.

How is it better?  I vaguely recall at least one change in Tango's runtime
that actually violates the Posix spec, and so decided to implement things
differently in Druntime.  But I don't watch the Tango timeline, so it's
possible that some awesome new features have been implemented that
I'm not aware of.

As for Druntime only supporting DMD... see below.

> And apparently, there's been very
> little contact with Sean lately, so it's a case of 'us' vs 'them' again.

No one has tried to contact me.  I talked with Fawzi a bit shortly after Druntime was created, but that's it.  I'm too busy to even do the things I have planned for Druntime anyway, so I'm not about to chase people down to try add yet more tasks to my list.

== Quote from Jarrett Billingsley (jarrett.billingsley@gmail.com)'s article
> On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 7:23 PM, Nick Sabalausky<a@a.a> wrote:
> >> IIRC, Tango devs claim that its runtime is better than druntime, which also only supports DMD at the moment. And apparently, there's been very little contact with Sean lately, so it's a case of 'us' vs 'them' again.
> >
> > Can anyone in-the-know comment on this? (Also, I thought tango runtime ==
> > druntime? At least for D2.)
> I was under that impression too..?

I've added some features to Druntime, but I believe everything is backwards- compatible with Tango's runtime.  But as I said elsewhere, I haven't been keeping tabs on Tango's development, so anything is possible.

"Sean Kelly" <sean@invisibleduck.org> wrote in message news:h2c1pb$2q9l$1@digitalmars.com...
> == Quote from Jarrett Billingsley (jarrett.billingsley@gmail.com)'s article
>> On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 7:23 PM, Nick Sabalausky<a@a.a> wrote:
>> >> IIRC, Tango devs claim that its runtime is better than druntime, which
>> >> also only supports DMD at the moment. And apparently, there's been
>> >> very
>> >> little contact with Sean lately, so it's a case of 'us' vs 'them'
>> >> again.
>> >
>> > Can anyone in-the-know comment on this? (Also, I thought tango runtime
>> > ==
>> > druntime? At least for D2.)
>> I was under that impression too..?
>
> I've added some features to Druntime, but I believe everything is
> backwards-
> compatible with Tango's runtime.  But as I said elsewhere, I haven't been
> keeping tabs on Tango's development, so anything is possible.

What was Druntime spawned directly from? phobos2's runtime? tango's runtime? A merge of the two?

== Quote from Nick Sabalausky (a@a.a)'s article
> "Sean Kelly" <sean@invisibleduck.org> wrote in message news:h2c1pb$2q9l$1@digitalmars.com...
> > == Quote from Jarrett Billingsley (jarrett.billingsley@gmail.com)'s
> > article
> >> On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 7:23 PM, Nick Sabalausky<a@a.a> wrote:
> >> >> IIRC, Tango devs claim that its runtime is better than druntime, which
> >> >> also only supports DMD at the moment. And apparently, there's been
> >> >> very
> >> >> little contact with Sean lately, so it's a case of 'us' vs 'them'
> >> >> again.
> >> >
> >> > Can anyone in-the-know comment on this? (Also, I thought tango runtime
> >> > ==
> >> > druntime? At least for D2.)
> >> I was under that impression too..?
> >
> > I've added some features to Druntime, but I believe everything is
> > backwards-
> > compatible with Tango's runtime.  But as I said elsewhere, I haven't been
> > keeping tabs on Tango's development, so anything is possible.
> What was Druntime spawned directly from? phobos2's runtime? tango's runtime? A merge of the two?

Tango's runtime.  I haven't been actively maintaining the D1 branch of Druntime, but no one was using it anyway, so...