June 30
On Monday, 29 June 2020 at 23:35:13 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 6/29/2020 3:55 AM, Chris wrote:
>> and is taking offence at everything,
>
> That is a complete misunderstanding of what is going on here. The targets of rude behavior are not the problem, it is the rude behavior that's the problem.
>
> It's about professional demeanor.
>
> Unprofessional posts will be deleted.

Personally I think that the sentence was not really rude or insulting but maybe polemical, so within the range of a passionate and heated debate, I'd say, even in a professional environment.

IMO, it's neither fair nor good style to single out one sentence from a long post and dismiss the whole post because you consider the sentence to be rude or unprofessional. It may give people the impression that it's merely a strategy to avoid inconvenient questions / points. And since "professional demeanor" is a flexible term one can always change the criteria as one sees fit (another one is "unspecific" which has become a rather unspecific term too :).

In this case, you could have just said something like "That's not a nice way to put it, but I get your point [answer] ...May I ask you to be a bit more careful in your choice of words the next time. We're trying to keep things strictly professional here."

As for the point the poster made, there is no answer I guess, because relying on volunteers is a big gamble and only because people have stepped up in the past doesn't mean it's gonna be like that forever. Again, for the third time, you haven't addressed this point but instead talked about "professional demeanor".
June 30
On 6/30/2020 1:30 AM, aberba wrote:
> Sounds like you're giving me a good idea. I've added it to my to-do list.

Looking forward to it!
June 30
On 6/30/2020 1:33 AM, Chris wrote:
> Personally I think that the sentence was not really rude or insulting but maybe polemical, so within the range of a passionate and heated debate, I'd say, even in a professional environment.

Calling someone "spoiled" is rude and unprofessional. Period.


> IMO, it's neither fair nor good style to single out one sentence from a long post and dismiss the whole post because you consider the sentence to be rude or unprofessional.

People who want their message heard need to post in a professional manner. I don't care about the opinions of rude people. I don't care to work with them, even if they are good. I am hardly alone in this - pretty much nobody in the professional world responds to rude messages.


> And since "professional demeanor" is a flexible term one can always change the criteria as one sees fit (another one is "unspecific" which has become a rather unspecific term too :).

I recommend that anyone who has difficulties understanding what politeness is get a copy of Emily Post's book on business etiquette.


Ill-mannered people find themselves shut out of all kinds of opportunities, and they rarely figure out why.
July 01
On Tuesday, 30 June 2020 at 21:40:31 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 6/30/2020 1:33 AM, Chris wrote:
>> Personally I think that the sentence was not really rude or insulting but maybe polemical, so within the range of a passionate and heated debate, I'd say, even in a professional environment.
>
> Calling someone "spoiled" is rude and unprofessional. Period.
>
>
>> IMO, it's neither fair nor good style to single out one sentence from a long post and dismiss the whole post because you consider the sentence to be rude or unprofessional.
>
> People who want their message heard need to post in a professional manner. I don't care about the opinions of rude people. I don't care to work with them, even if they are good. I am hardly alone in this - pretty much nobody in the professional world responds to rude messages.
>
>
>> And since "professional demeanor" is a flexible term one can always change the criteria as one sees fit (another one is "unspecific" which has become a rather unspecific term too :).
>
> I recommend that anyone who has difficulties understanding what politeness is get a copy of Emily Post's book on business etiquette.
>
>
> Ill-mannered people find themselves shut out of all kinds of opportunities, and they rarely figure out why.

Well said! This is especially applicable for healthy societies and communities.

Unrelated to this, but around a month ago I was discussing with a friend of mine who is a psychiatrist on how common narcissism has become these days and is being mistaken for boldness and how leadership roles are being taken by such people and how meritocratic communities tend to expell narcists and kakistocracy communities tend to favor them, especially if it involves money.

If we do not point out and stand up against their wrong doings, they would think they would think they are doing a favor. If we do, they won't realize their mistake but would assume personal grudge!
July 01
On Wednesday, 1 July 2020 at 03:25:45 UTC, Arun Chandrasekaran wrote:
> On Tuesday, 30 June 2020 at 21:40:31 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
>> On 6/30/2020 1:33 AM, Chris wrote:
>>> Personally I think that the sentence was not really rude or insulting but maybe polemical, so within the range of a passionate and heated debate, I'd say, even in a professional environment.
>>
>> Calling someone "spoiled" is rude and unprofessional. Period.
>>
>>
>>> IMO, it's neither fair nor good style to single out one sentence from a long post and dismiss the whole post because you consider the sentence to be rude or unprofessional.
>>
>> People who want their message heard need to post in a professional manner. I don't care about the opinions of rude people. I don't care to work with them, even if they are good. I am hardly alone in this - pretty much nobody in the professional world responds to rude messages.
>>
>>
>>> And since "professional demeanor" is a flexible term one can always change the criteria as one sees fit (another one is "unspecific" which has become a rather unspecific term too :).
>>
>> I recommend that anyone who has difficulties understanding what politeness is get a copy of Emily Post's book on business etiquette.
>>
>>
>> Ill-mannered people find themselves shut out of all kinds of opportunities, and they rarely figure out why.
>
> Well said! This is especially applicable for healthy societies and communities.
>
> Unrelated to this, but around a month ago I was discussing with a friend of mine who is a psychiatrist on how common narcissism has become these days and is being mistaken for boldness and how leadership roles are being taken by such people and how meritocratic communities tend to expell narcists and kakistocracy communities tend to favor them, especially if it involves money.
>
> If we do not point out and stand up against their wrong doings, they would think they would think they are doing a favor. If we do, they won't realize their mistake but would assume personal grudge!

For what it's worth, while I often disagree with Chris' current phrasing and diction, he does have valid points, and I think he has good intentions too. (Frustration, like stress, may be a negative or a positive motivator!) It would probably benefit us all if leadership scheduled a video conference Q&A, or perhaps something more informal, e.g. an 'official' BeerConf, as textual discussions are more prone to faulty and uncharitable inferences.

And so that this post is somewhat on-topic, I also like a beefier stdlib. I don't need an HTTP server or graphics, but containers, generic algorithms, protocols, data formats, etc. are all very welcome; Phobos satisfies a good chunk of this list.
July 01
On Wednesday, 1 July 2020 at 04:13:15 UTC, Clarice wrote:
> On Wednesday, 1 July 2020 at 03:25:45 UTC, Arun Chandrasekaran wrote:

>but
> containers, generic algorithms, ..., data formats,
> are all very welcome; Phobos satisfies a good chunk of this list.

That's one thing I've always admired Java for. At least for containers.

 D has solid generic algorithms thanks to Andrei among others.

Containers and common data formats (json, XML, CSV,..) I'm not sure we're there yet.

However, there's solid implementations on dub (vibe.data.json, std_data_json, dxml,...) so I personally don't have trouble getting things done.

But those are core things that rarely change so fit into a standard library for easy get-go.

July 01
On Wednesday, 1 July 2020 at 04:13:15 UTC, Clarice wrote:
> On Wednesday, 1 July 2020 at 03:25:45 UTC, Arun Chandrasekaran wrote:
> It would probably benefit us all if leadership scheduled a video conference Q&A, or perhaps something more informal, e.g. an 'official' BeerConf, as textual discussions are more prone to faulty and uncharitable inferences.

Couldn't agree more. Hoping for it.

DLF: added to my to-do list, checked :)

July 01
On 6/30/20 5:40 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 6/30/2020 1:33 AM, Chris wrote:
>> Personally I think that the sentence was not really rude or insulting but maybe polemical, so within the range of a passionate and heated debate, I'd say, even in a professional environment.
> 
> Calling someone "spoiled" is rude and unprofessional. Period.

I disagree with this. "spoiled" is a term to mean "harmed in character by being treated too leniently or indulgently". In that sense, the OP's point (right or wrong) was that you may have an incorrect expectation that someone will volunteer to step up because you have known nothing but people volunteering to do projects without you having to prod people into it.

In that sense, this isn't a derogatory or rude term, but conveys accurately what the person is trying to say. I personally would not take offense at someone saying I'm spoiled by D because it has too many awesome features. I have a hard time dealing with other languages because D is too good. It *HAS* spoiled me.

Begin even more off-topic rant:

I just want to also say, we are somehow in a time where people take so much offense at everything that is said. Basically construing what is said in the worst possible light, and I feel like this doesn't help discussion at all. It derails the discussion and cancels sometimes valid opinions without addressing them. I prefer to think people are mostly just trying to convey a point, and if they do it in a rude way, it's either because I may have misunderstood them (or they aren't familiar with the alternate meaning of what they said), or because they let their emotions get the best of them (it happens to everyone). It can be just as effective to point out the offense, and remind people that we should avoid these kinds of tones, rather than refuse to discuss further (which often has the opposite effect -- escalating).

So many online services are starting to cave to the slightest of offenses, and I hope this forum doesn't start doing the same.

As a funny anecdote, I worked at a company which bought bagels for everyone every morning. When the delivery would come, the receptionist would email the building saying the bagels are here.

One morning she misspelled bagels as beagles and added some phrase like "come and get em while their hot" or something like that.

There were many obviously tongue-in-cheek or friendly ribbing responses. One person, however, responded with one word "Cannibal!" It was someone I worked with, so I asked him if he knew what cannibal meant. He said "of course, it means someone who eats cute animals." Needless to say as we were in a more sane time, he was not fired for such an offense, apologized, and we all had a good laugh about it (at his expense of course). Deescalation and humor I find are often a better response than shaming and begrudging.

-Steve
July 01
On Wednesday, 1 July 2020 at 04:13:15 UTC, Clarice wrote:
> And so that this post is somewhat on-topic, I also like a beefier stdlib.

I wish we had more interfaces and UDAs in there.

Today for day job work, I need to do a generic serialize function that can handle std.datetime. It would be very cool if it already worked, if there was a `void serialize(ISerializer)` already there, and/or a `@serializable` attribute.

The stdlib doesn't need to implement all the things, but having the interface means it would be easy to reuse all these things without writing as many special-purpose adapters.
July 01
On Wednesday, 1 July 2020 at 13:40:30 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
> On 6/30/20 5:40 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
>> On 6/30/2020 1:33 AM, Chris wrote:
>>> Personally I think that the sentence was not really rude or insulting but maybe polemical, so within the range of a passionate and heated debate, I'd say, even in a professional environment.
>> 
>> Calling someone "spoiled" is rude and unprofessional. Period.
>
> I disagree with this. "spoiled" is a term to mean "harmed in character by being treated too leniently or indulgently". In that sense, the OP's point (right or wrong) was that you may have an incorrect expectation that someone will volunteer to step up because you have known nothing but people volunteering to do projects without you having to prod people into it.
>
> In that sense, this isn't a derogatory or rude term, but conveys accurately what the person is trying to say. I personally would not take offense at someone saying I'm spoiled by D because it has too many awesome features. I have a hard time dealing with other languages because D is too good. It *HAS* spoiled me.

One thing to take in count, is there are a lot a foreigners in this forum (Like myself), so one word which may sound "rude" for a native person, may be different for a non native.

I think people may forget that during a discussion and I wonder if a flag showing the nationality would be helpful in these situations.

Matheus.
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