On 7/21/15 9:34 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
> On 7/21/15 9:17 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>
>> At the first D meetup in the Silicon Valley, Vic (an accomplished
>> entrepreneur who has been following up D'd path) discussed some ideas
>> for improving D's adoption. He mentioned some other languages have
>> improved adoption by means of a strong application (e.g. Rails for Ruby)
>> and suggested we make vibe.d, which is one of D's most compelling
>> publicly available applications, more prominent among D's toolchain. He
>> mentioned that many folks start with the high-level need ("I need a web
>> framework") and accept the language as an artifact.
>
> Rails is not shipped with ruby.

That doesn't dilute my point. -- Andrei

On Tuesday, 21 July 2015 at 14:07:22 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> On 7/21/15 9:34 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
>> On 7/21/15 9:17 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>>
>>> At the first D meetup in the Silicon Valley, Vic (an accomplished
>>> entrepreneur who has been following up D'd path) discussed some ideas
>>> for improving D's adoption. He mentioned some other languages have
>>> improved adoption by means of a strong application (e.g. Rails for Ruby)
>>> and suggested we make vibe.d, which is one of D's most compelling
>>> publicly available applications, more prominent among D's toolchain. He
>>> mentioned that many folks start with the high-level need ("I need a web
>>> framework") and accept the language as an artifact.
>>
>> Rails is not shipped with ruby.
>
> That doesn't dilute my point. -- Andrei

If vibe.d is to be distributed with D, it would be preferable to have MySQL support out of the box.

On Tuesday, 21 July 2015 at 08:46:49 UTC, John Colvin wrote:
> On Monday, 20 July 2015 at 23:18:34 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>> On 7/20/15 5:30 PM, Martin Nowak wrote:
>>> On Thursday, 16 July 2015 at 08:28:08 UTC, Suliman wrote:
>>>> In what version of DMD do you plan to include dub and vibe?
>>>
>>> It doesn't make sense to include vibe.d.
>>
>> I think it does - this has been discussed before. -- Andrei
>
> Have you used dub and vibe.d extensively yourself? I'm seeing quite a lot of pushback on this idea from people who do.

Granted, I'm on a forked DUB master but I think it absolutely belongs to the standard language distribution. The downside of not having people discover it is just too huge.

If we want to accelerate D2 adoption, we need too:

- have more and better WORKING examples. More or less, a workable "copy-paste" approach for (almost) every module and function...
- make D2 easy2use for "not C++/Java/whatever gurus" again
  -> all this different "types", which are either required as an input for functions or are returned from those and need to be casted/converted all the time... frustrating for real "new comers"
  -> it all starts with "string" and "char[]" stuff, but is really a nightmare with all the ranges and things which need to be converted all the time, i.e. like with ".array"... I couldn't convince colleagues to use D2 because it's just to complicate already for the low level things like those!

In short, I would:
- NOT include VIBE.D and such things into the core lang, but make it a breeze to integrate such modules with DUB
- make every D2 function accept and return "string"s and "[dw]char[]" (THAT would be a radical new thing for D2, maybe!)


On Tuesday, 21 July 2015 at 13:17:36 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> It all starts with a high level thought. We want to accelerate D adoption rate way beyond what it is now. Radically, like 10x. We've done a number of things, many of which helped. But there's this thought - if we keep on doing what we've been doing, we'll keep on getting the results we've been getting. (There could be changes of phase, synergy, cumulative effects etc. but just waiting for those to happen doesn't sound like the best tactics.)
>
> So I keep an eye on radical new things we could try - things we have not done before, and that have worked for others. Some might just not work, but we don't know if we don't just try.
>
 ~~~ snip ~~~
>
> Andrei

On 07/21/2015 09:17 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>
> At the first D meetup in the Silicon Valley, Vic (an accomplished
> entrepreneur who has been following up D'd path) discussed some ideas
> for improving D's adoption. He mentioned some other languages have
> improved adoption by means of a strong application (e.g. Rails for Ruby)
> and suggested we make vibe.d, which is one of D's most compelling
> publicly available applications, more prominent among D's toolchain. He
> mentioned that many folks start with the high-level need ("I need a web
> framework") and accept the language as an artifact.
>

Maybe this suggests that perhaps Vibe.d should (optionally) come with a copy of DMD, rather than the other way around?

On Tuesday, 21 July 2015 at 14:59:21 UTC, notna wrote:
[...snip...]
> - make D2 easy2use for "not C++/Java/whatever gurus" again
>   -> all this different "types", which are either required as an input for functions or are returned from those and need to be casted/converted all the time... frustrating for real "new comers"
[...snip...]

Huh? Whats frustrating about it?
It's a statically typed language, there's always going to be "types".
We have the 'auto' keyword for type inference though, which really makes it feel like a scripting language.
Honestly, the biggest advice I can give to real new-comers is to use auto for a while till you get a feel for it.

On 2015-07-21 15:17, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

> So I keep an eye on radical new things we could try - things we have not
> done before, and that have worked for others. Some might just not work,
> but we don't know if we don't just try.

It sounds like you want to give it a try and see what happens. I would be a bit careful with that, in regard to the very strong policy of no breaking changes. If it turns out that it doesn't work so well it might be hard to remove.

How about we start with bundling Dub and see what happens? Then at a later point we can discuss what to do about vibe.d.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg

On 2015-07-21 15:34, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:

> Rails is not shipped with ruby. You have to install it separately. In
> fact, vibe.d follows almost the same model as rails (I may be sketchy on
> the details, still learning ruby/rails), with gem substituting for dub.
>
> I think what we need is dub to be shipped with d (If it's not already).

Yeah, RubyGems is bundled these days with Ruby. We need to do that same with Dub.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg

On 7/21/15 12:22 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> How about we start with bundling Dub and see what happens? Then at a
> later point we can discuss what to do about vibe.d.

Yah, nice. -- Andrei

On Tuesday, 21 July 2015 at 16:27:24 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> On 7/21/15 12:22 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>> How about we start with bundling Dub and see what happens? Then at a
>> later point we can discuss what to do about vibe.d.
>
> Yah, nice. -- Andrei

So why we can't simply add vibed in manner of VS addon?
What about make some of api common for D and vibed?
And yes, vibe should have by default mysql driver. I am not a fun of mysql, but it will help people to start develop much faster.