The Dconf AGM draft agenda  is up at https://github.com/thewilsonator/Dlang-AGM

If you feel that something is missing or I've messed something up please do open a PR.

On Wednesday, 3 April 2019 at 00:10:53 UTC, Nicholas Wilson wrote:
> The Dconf AGM draft agenda  is up at https://github.com/thewilsonator/Dlang-AGM
>
> If you feel that something is missing or I've messed something up please do open a PR.

I would throw in the possibility of deprecating `inout`.

On Wednesday, 3 April 2019 at 00:10:53 UTC, Nicholas Wilson wrote:
> The Dconf AGM draft agenda  is up at https://github.com/thewilsonator/Dlang-AGM
>
> If you feel that something is missing or I've messed something up please do open a PR.

For the sake of transparency, seeing as there is a big initial commit and no other attributions:

1) Who wrote this agenda?

2) Where did they get the content from?

On Wednesday, 3 April 2019 at 08:54:41 UTC, John Colvin wrote:
> For the sake of transparency, seeing as there is a big initial commit and no other attributions:
>
> 1) Who wrote this agenda?

Me.

> 2) Where did they get the content from?

Built the list up over the course of the last ~6 months from forum, PR and slack discussions.

This is a great initiative.

On Wednesday, 3 April 2019 at 00:10:53 UTC, Nicholas Wilson wrote:
> If you feel that something is missing or I've messed something up please do open a PR.

I think it's the opposite of missing things. Looking at: http://dconf.org/2019/talks/agm.html

Duration: 4 hours
"expected to last an-hour-and-a-half, but it could go longer"

It's a great backlog of things, but no way you can properly discuss that all in a couple of hours. I suggest to make something like a top 5 big issue points (things like DIP1000 or DMD as a library), and for each point a description of what you want out of the discussion / what the goal is.

Thinks like:
int[$] arr = [1,2,3,4];
Are cool, but not worth precious Dconf time compared to larger issues I think. I'd really focus on things that were already discussed online but did not reach a satisfying conclusion yet.

In any case, I'm looking forward to the outcome of this meeting.

On Wednesday, 3 April 2019 at 09:52:19 UTC, Dennis wrote:
> This is a great initiative.
>
> I think it's the opposite of missing things. Looking at: http://dconf.org/2019/talks/agm.html
>
> Duration: 4 hours
> "expected to last an-hour-and-a-half, but it could go longer"
>
> It's a great backlog of things, but no way you can properly discuss that all in a couple of hours. I suggest to make something like a top 5 big issue points (things like DIP1000 or DMD as a library), and for each point a description of what you want out of the discussion / what the goal is.

Well I'm hoping that some/most of the points will have already been discussed (possibly even resolved) by the time the AGM takes place (it's on the last day).

> Thinks like:
> int[$] arr = [1,2,3,4];
> Are cool, but not worth precious Dconf time compared to larger issues I think. I'd really focus on things that were already discussed online but did not reach a satisfying conclusion yet.

That's one case already ;)

> In any case, I'm looking forward to the outcome of this meeting.
 Me too.

On Wednesday, 3 April 2019 at 00:10:53 UTC, Nicholas Wilson wrote:
> The Dconf AGM draft agenda  is up at https://github.com/thewilsonator/Dlang-AGM
>
> If you feel that something is missing or I've messed something up please do open a PR.

Thanks a lot for this!

It would be super nice to have handy links to the relevant GH PRs, Bugzilla issue or forum discussion.
Also each point should have a short description, because I don't know what you want to discuss with e.g. "Stuff from github.com/truedat101/dlang-sv-community".

Anyhow, a few points:

> Deprecate autodecode – plan of action

tl;dr: the only way we can get rid of it is std.v2

> Dub tester to regression scan for dmd releases - Neia

How is this different to the existing project tester?

> 64 compiler release for windows

It's listed twice.
In short: the release setup is pretty complicated and only Martin has all the VMs required for the build setup.
Also, you might want to add to your list that the binaries for Windows are no longer signed.

> int[$] arr = [1,2,3,4];

I wouldn't get my hopes up for this one.
A DMD PR has been reverted and then closed.

https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/3615
https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/4377

Since then `staticArray` has been added to Phobos:

> changes w.r.t DIP1000, c.f. dlang.org#2453

the subpoints seem unrelated.

> Quality of documentation

It's pretty bad. DMD documentation is almost unusable, for druntime many modules don't have long descriptions or examples. Phobos is a lot better, but the ddoc <-> ddox duplication is still around.
The tour.dlang.io should have been revisited and reworked a long time ago, but no one got around (in short: we want to have a more natural intro for readers and show off D features in the beginning, not end).

> Transition from DMC+OPTLINK to msvc/mingw + lld

I have tried this before. Walter will definitely object to this. Other people also gave it a shot, see e.g.

https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/8347
https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/9085

With mingwg + lld there is also this problem: https://issues.dlang.org/show_bug.cgi?id=19760

At least, dub now does the sensible thing:

https://github.com/dlang/dub/pull/1661

> FreeBSD 11/12

It's a mess and as almost no one uses D on FreeBSD, this doesn't move forward:

https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/8567

FWIW toolchain triplet selection would have been nice too:

https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/8020

> State of std.experimental

The entire idea of std.experimental kinda failed, because breaking changes can't be SemVer-ed,
If you're asking whether anything can be stabilized, we're far from it:

- stdx.logger: people want a @nogc logger (and IIRC there were some API issues)
- stdx.checkedint: it's not even @safe by default (see e.g. https://github.com/dlang/phobos/pull/6369, https://github.com/dlang/phobos/pull/5928, https://github.com/dlang/phobos/pull/6550)
- stdx.allocator: still changes happening very often. The community fork diverged and is usable with betterC (https://github.com/dlang-community/stdx-allocator). There are also quite a few bugzilla issues on it
- stdx.typecons: probably the only module that could be stabilized (though it only contains two functions)

I'm not sure what to do with wrap as the existing wrap would need to be deprecated and removed, but we could stabilize Final (D's head-const):

https://dlang.org/phobos/std_experimental_typecons.html#.Final

> DMD as a library

With stuff like https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/9507, it's a constant battle :/

> Get bugzilla under control (prioritisation)

We tried quite a few things over the last years:

- #dbugfix campaign
- voting on Bugzilla issues

Currently, we're back to people complaining loudly on the NG about very important issues as this is the only way to grab attention.

About a year ago, I started an internal discussion about moving the issues to GitHub. I tested a potential migration and it looked pretty promising. The two big downsides were:
- issue numbers would be different (though a redirect on issues.dlang.org and mentioning the original issue number should help greatly with that. Furthermore, we could create empty "dummy" issues to align the issue numbers if deemed necessary)
- no longer in one global issue database (though since GitHub supports issue transfers, probably not a big problem anymore)

In the end it wasn't done because of the fear of loosing control over the issue data as the only way to programmatically export them is the GitHub API which is severely rate-limited. Though to be honest, at the moment Brad is the only with access to issues.dlang.org (and no one else to my knowledge is keeping backups of issues.dlang.org).

The migration script is here: https://github.com/wilzbach/bugzilla-migration

On Wednesday, 3 April 2019 at 11:53:11 UTC, Seb wrote:
> Thanks a lot for this!

No problem.

> It would be super nice to have handy links to the relevant GH PRs, Bugzilla issue or forum discussion.

True, I'm not sure how much I'll be able to get done, I fly out tomorrow evening and will be pretty busy until dconf.

> Also each point should have a short description, because I don't know what you want to discuss with e.g. "Stuff from github.com/truedat101/dlang-sv-community".

Whoops I thought I'd fixed that.

> Anyhow, a few points:
>
>> Deprecate autodecode – plan of action
>
> tl;dr: the only way we can get rid of it is std.v2

Grumble, grumble.

>> Dub tester to regression scan for dmd releases - Neia
>
> How is this different to the existing project tester?

IIRC it was run against all dub projects, as opposed to a select group.

>> 64 compiler release for windows
>
> It's listed twice.

Its very important ;) (whoops)

> In short: the release setup is pretty complicated and only Martin has all the VMs required for the build setup.

Hmm, that screams single point of failure to me.

> Also, you might want to add to your list that the binaries for Windows are no longer signed.

Noted, thanks.

>> int[$] arr = [1,2,3,4];
>
> I wouldn't get my hopes up for this one.
> A DMD PR has been reverted and then closed.
>
> https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/3615
> https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/4377
>
> Since then `staticArray` has been added to Phobos:

Hmm:

>> [Andrei]: I am definitely thinking [$] should not be in D. We need to achieve most of what it does with libraries.

I don't like that reasoning: just because we can doesn't mean we should (unnecessary template instances). I note that the same reasoning seems to have been used to remove hex strings which have come to the end of their deprecation period.

>> changes w.r.t DIP1000, c.f. dlang.org#2453
>
> the subpoints seem unrelated.

That was the PR that took forever to get approved after _I_ attempted to reconcile the lack of documentation about dip1000. (yes I'm still annoyed)

>> Quality of documentation
>
> It's pretty bad. DMD documentation is almost unusable, for druntime many modules don't have long descriptions or examples. Phobos is a lot better, but the ddoc <-> ddox duplication is still around.
> The tour.dlang.io should have been revisited and reworked a long time ago, but no one got around (in short: we want to have a more natural intro for readers and show off D features in the beginning, not end).

Yup, I'm hoping that having discussed it in the morning some otherwise idle people might take the charge at the hackathon (man those CIs are going to get hammered).

>> Transition from DMC+OPTLINK to msvc/mingw + lld
>
> I have tried this before. Walter will definitely object to this. Other people also gave it a shot, see e.g.
>
> https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/8347
> https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/9085

Well he's going to have to seriously justify that position (modulo below).

> With mingwg + lld there is also this problem: https://issues.dlang.org/show_bug.cgi?id=19760

Bummer.

> At least, dub now does the sensible thing:
>
> https://github.com/dlang/dub/pull/1661

Good.

>> FreeBSD 11/12
>
> It's a mess and as almost no one uses D on FreeBSD, this doesn't move forward:
>
> https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/8567
>
> FWIW toolchain triplet selection would have been nice too:
>
> https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/8020

Indeed.

>> State of std.experimental
>
> The entire idea of std.experimental kinda failed, because breaking changes can't be SemVer-ed,
> If you're asking whether anything can be stabilized, we're far from it:
>
> - stdx.logger: people want a @nogc logger (and IIRC there were some API issues)
> - stdx.checkedint: it's not even @safe by default (see e.g. https://github.com/dlang/phobos/pull/6369, https://github.com/dlang/phobos/pull/5928, https://github.com/dlang/phobos/pull/6550)
> - stdx.allocator: still changes happening very often. The community fork diverged and is usable with betterC (https://github.com/dlang-community/stdx-allocator). There are also quite a few bugzilla issues on it
> - stdx.typecons: probably the only module that could be stabilized (though it only contains two functions)
>
> I'm not sure what to do with wrap as the existing wrap would need to be deprecated and removed, but we could stabilize Final (D's head-const):
>
> https://dlang.org/phobos/std_experimental_typecons.html#.Final
>
>> DMD as a library
>
> With stuff like https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/9507, it's a constant battle :/

I know.

>> Get bugzilla under control (prioritisation)
>
> We tried quite a few things over the last years:
>
> - #dbugfix campaign
> - voting on Bugzilla issues
>
> Currently, we're back to people complaining loudly on the NG about very important issues as this is the only way to grab attention.

Even a list of bounties would be useful.

On Wednesday, 3 April 2019 at 12:29:25 UTC, Nicholas Wilson wrote:
> On Wednesday, 3 April 2019 at 11:53:11 UTC, Seb wrote:
>> the subpoints seem unrelated.

Ah I see, the indentation was off, that was supposed to be a subpoint of the point above.

On 4/3/19 5:52 AM, Dennis wrote:
> This is a great initiative.
> 
> On Wednesday, 3 April 2019 at 00:10:53 UTC, Nicholas Wilson wrote:
>> If you feel that something is missing or I've messed something up please do open a PR.
> 
> I think it's the opposite of missing things. Looking at: http://dconf.org/2019/talks/agm.html
> 
> Duration: 4 hours
> "expected to last an-hour-and-a-half, but it could go longer"

My flight to Boston takes off from LGW at 4:55 on Saturday so I'll be a bit timeboxed.