On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 23:14:50 UTC, codephantom wrote:
> On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 11:19:39 UTC, Satoshi wrote:
>>
>> You are judging C#, but looks where is D and where is C#.
>
> Where is C#?
>

In about 50% of the corporations doing enterprise programming.

> - good luck porting it to other (non MS, non .NET environments).

.NET Core is getting there.

> - performance of large code bases can often be sluggish

What's your proof of this? I have worked with multiple large code bases written in .NET without bad performance?

> - VS.NET does most of the coding for you.

Uh, what? Because of JIT? Okay. Then "D" does most of the coding for you too then, since you're not writing the assembly code nor are you manually linking your object files.

> - most C# developers have no idea what's being done behind the scenes.

To me, it seems like you have no idea what's being done behind the scenes.

> - you can't create a function outside of a class (great design decision btw!)
>

Different language, different design choice, different goals.

It's not like every decision in D are the best either.

Every language has their flaws.

> I could go on..and on...
>

Yeah, but I'd rather if you didn't.

> It's had good sides and bad sides.
>
> MSFT fanboys are unable to distinguish the difference, and think everything must be great, cause MSFT/C# did it.
>

I'm not even a "MSFT" fanboy. I replaced all my private .NET code with D, but not because I despise .NET at all, but because D is my preferred language of choice.

There are certain areas of .NET that D could learn a lot from.

> MSFT have spent the last 7 years mostly adding useless stuff to C# - but like their design descions about Windows, and their other products. Instead of real innovation, we just get more useless stuff.

Different people, different opinions.

>
> These forums need more critical thinking, and better justification for new features (other than 'cause MSFT knows best'), or ('cause the language I'm used to using has it').

If I got a dollar for every time you said "MSFT", I'd be able to buy Microsoft.

---------------

On Saturday, 11 November 2017 at 02:52:47 UTC, codephantom wrote:
> On Saturday, 11 November 2017 at 01:37:01 UTC, 12345swordy wrote:
>> best'), or ('cause the language I'm used to using has it').
>> You should take your own advice first, when you insult other people by calling them "Microsoft fanboys". Take your snark somewhere else.
>
> Any opinion/idea offered by someone who can't take criticism of MSFT products, is not worth very much to me. As far as I'm concerned, it demonstrates a closed mind, incapable of exploring alternative solutions. It invites suspicion.
>

Opinions without facts are pretty useless.

Something you should be familiar with.

> Now...if you're not actually a 'MSFT fanboy', then i dare you to post a link that criticises the C# langauge, or any other MSFT product.

Why would anyone waste their time finding that? It's such a petty thing.

It's like saying:

"If you're not a fan of Justin Bieber, I dare you to find an article that dislikes him."

I thought we were more professional on these forums, but I guess kindergarten is all around the internet.

-------------------------

On Saturday, 11 November 2017 at 03:49:24 UTC, codephantom wrote:
> On Saturday, 11 November 2017 at 01:37:01 UTC, 12345swordy wrote:
>> You should take your own advice first, when you insult other people by calling them "Microsoft fanboys". Take your snark somewhere else.
>
> and btw. if you had gone back a few threads (instead of just jumping into a conversation to just have a go at me), then you'd know that it all started because i attempted to inject some humour into the converstation, and used a youtube video that made fun of the design of Windows 10 - in a humerous manner.
>

Hahahah so funny....... no.

> What results from that, was some guy telling me that I was bashing on Adam. That i was anti this and anti that.
>
> Then others got involved too, trying to bash on me even further.
>

Nobody is "bashing" anyone.

> So, if you're all willing to dish it out to me, you better be prepared to take some too!
>

Such a mature thing to do.

> D's future will depend not on how well it ties into a propriatory o/s, but who well it runs in open source environments. Anyone who doesn't see that, doesn't understand whats going on in the world of software development. Even MSFT get that, and are now trying to port C# as quickly as possibly to other platforms to hold off the competition that's already here, and more to come.
>

And your source of information is?

> I think D is where it is, because it was developed on Windows (windows 32 bit it seems). Had it been developed on an open source operating system, I expect it would be miles ahead of where it currently is.
>

I'm not even sure what you're referring to in terms of D's issues. Especially when you mention that you think it was developed on Windows. Isn't it strange Windows the OS left out mostly by D then?

What you say doesn't match up with any facts around here.

In fact the only OS that is currently troublesome with D is iOS as far as I'm aware.

> If D is making Windows its platform priority, then it has to compete with exiting MSFT solutions on the platform, which in my mind, are far superior to anyting D can or will be able to provide. D should focus its attention elsewhere.
>

It's not about winning a competition.

------------------

On Saturday, 11 November 2017 at 04:55:15 UTC, codephantom wrote:
> On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 05:23:53 UTC, Adam Wilson wrote:
>> MSFT spends a LOT of time studying these things. It would be wise to learn for free from the money they spent.
>
> This is valid MSFT code, I believe:
>
> A?.B?.C?[0] ?? E
> A?.B?.C?[0] == E
>
> I have been coding on and off, since 1992, in various languages.
>
> So can you please tell what this code means?
>
> Can you please tell me what it was that MSFT learnt (and spent money to do so), so as to enable coders to write such code?

Every operator in every language can be abused.

Every language has good and bad programmers.

In fact without the null-conditional operator the code would look even worse.

Ex. D equivalent:

A ? A.B ? A.B.C ? A.B.C[0] : E : E : E

(A ? A.B ? A.B.C ? A.B.C[0] : null : null : null) == E

--------------------------------

On Saturday, 11 November 2017 at 05:20:39 UTC, codephantom wrote:
> On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 05:23:53 UTC, Adam Wilson wrote:
>> MSFT spends a LOT of time studying these things. It would be wise to learn for free from the money they spent.
>
> I just saw this about the new 'damnit' operator, for C# 8.
>
> https://github.com/dotnet/csharplang/issues/556
>
> I thought it was a joke at first, but they are serious.
>
> C# seem to becoming language of operators.
>
> ool? a, b;
> ...
> var x = !a! != b! ? a! : !b!;
>
> Yeah...lets follow there example...they seem to know better.

It's a proposal, not an actually accepted implementation.

-----------

I'm tired so I will end my post here.

On Sunday, 12 November 2017 at 01:00:46 UTC, bauss wrote:
> I'm tired so I will end my post here.

Great contribution btw.

I might actually read it when i have nothing else to do...which will be a long way off...

On Sunday, 12 November 2017 at 01:00:46 UTC, bauss wrote:
>> and btw. if you had gone back a few threads (instead of just jumping into a conversation to just have a go at me), then you'd know that it all started because i attempted to inject some humour into the converstation, and used a youtube video that made fun of the design of Windows 10 - in a humerous manner.
>>
>
> Hahahah so funny....... no.
>

Seriously? You didn't find this video funny?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHG6fXEba0A

I think you've clearly demonstrated why I felt compelled to use the word 'fanboy'.

Microsoft fanboys hate anyone who:
- Uses Linux
- Rightfully criticizes Microsoft on some of their faults
- Dares to pose a different opinion

On Sunday, 12 November 2017 at 01:00:46 UTC, bauss wrote:
>> and btw. if you had gone back a few threads (instead of just jumping into a conversation to just have a go at me), then you'd know that it all started because i attempted to inject some humour into the converstation, and used a youtube video that made fun of the design of Windows 10 - in a humerous manner.
>>
>
> Hahahah so funny....... no.

And again, I'd like to point out to everyone, that the attack on me, in this thread, started becasue I dared to poke fun at the design of Windows 10.

In another discussion, the attack on me started because i dared to suggest you should be able to compile a 64bit D executable, on Windows, without have to download GB's of propriatey, closed-source, bloatware.

That really seemed to pee of the MSFT fanboys on these forums...who then thought it was appropriate to start attacking me personally.

I don't mind dishing it out back to them...if they persist.

On Sunday, 12 November 2017 at 01:00:46 UTC, bauss wrote:
>
> On Saturday, 11 November 2017 at 05:20:39 UTC, codephantom wrote:
>> On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 05:23:53 UTC, Adam Wilson wrote:
>>> MSFT spends a LOT of time studying these things. It would be wise to learn for free from the money they spent.
>>
>> I just saw this about the new 'damnit' operator, for C# 8.
>>
>> https://github.com/dotnet/csharplang/issues/556
>>
>> I thought it was a joke at first, but they are serious.
>>
>> C# seem to becoming language of operators.
>>
>> ool? a, b;
>> ...
>> var x = !a! != b! ? a! : !b!;
>>
>> Yeah...lets follow there example...they seem to know better.
>
> It's a proposal, not an actually accepted implementation.
>

It's more than a proposal. Mad Torgersen (i.e. mean, Mads Torgersen)...is actually pursuing its integration into C# 8 ....

https://channel9.msdn.com/Blogs/Seth-Juarez/A-Preview-of-C-8-with-Mads-Torgersen

15m:08s ...the 'I know better' operator (aks damnit operator)

I wonder if you'll have to upgrade your Visual Studio to the next version though...before you can use it...or maybe your .NET version will need upgrading..or maybe the .NET won't work on Win7..or maybe the new VS won't work in Windows 7....of maybe they'll release Windows 12, and only make C# 8 available on that platform....

On Saturday, 11 November 2017 at 12:53:46 UTC, Satoshi wrote:
> Yeah, stop duplicating what's out there and start writing similar software what already exists. Sounds great.

And every man, women... and their 2 dogs...are targetting mobile, web, cloud these days.

The idea that D is going to compete with the like of Google/Apple/MSFT in these areas..is..well..unconvincing.

The idea that such companies and going to rip up their massive codebases and rewrite them in D...is..well..unconvincing.

But everyone wants a more modular, more refined, more modern, more secure operating system ...and a more secure systems programming language.

But very who's focused on that?

Go has some potential, but I don't like many of its design decisions.
Rust is going nowhere, IMHO.

So D could take advantage of the fact the big corporates are focused elsewhere (and, also, that they're not very likely to turn their attention to redeveloping their os any time soon).

It could take advantage of Go, having made some questionable design decisions.

It could take advantage of Rust, seemingly going nowhere (IMHO).

So if there was ever a time for 'System D', it's now.

Instead, everyones focused on making it compatible..with this..and that...which is great..that will certainly bring attention to D...but I suspect it won't do too much more than that.

D needs a grander vision.

On Sunday, 12 November 2017 at 01:00:46 UTC, bauss wrote:
> I'm tired so I will end my post here.

And I'm going to end all my posts here, cause I'm sick of arguing with MSFT fanboys, who want to restrain D's development by tying it into propriatery, closed source, bloatware.

I'm going to start focusing my attention on rewriting (some) of FreeBSD userland, using D ..and see what happens. (btw. such programs can easily be migrated to Linux/OSX too...or the new 'System D' ..when it arrives ;-)

Besides being more productive, it also seems like more fun, than responding to MSFT fanboys (although that's been fun too).

Sorry MSFT fanboys, if you don't know what userland means. Go google it.

On Sunday, 12 November 2017 at 03:25:47 UTC, codephantom wrote:
>
> But everyone wants a more modular, more refined, more modern, more secure operating system ...and a more secure systems programming language.

How rewriting Linux from scratch will enhance security of the OS? By introducing more bugs to the new code?

>
> But very who's focused on that?
>
> Go has some potential, but I don't like many of its design decisions.
fakin' D fanboy!

>
> So D could take advantage of the fact the big corporates are focused elsewhere (and, also, that they're not very likely to turn their attention to redeveloping their os any time soon).
Because nobody spends billions of dollars on something what will not brings anything new.

>
> It could take advantage of Go, having made some questionable design decisions.
>
> It could take advantage of Rust, seemingly going nowhere (IMHO).
>
> So if there was ever a time for 'System D', it's now.
>
> Instead, everyones focused on making it compatible..with this..and that...which is great..that will certainly bring attention to D...but I suspect it won't do too much more than that.
>
> D needs a grander vision.

On Sunday, 12 November 2017 at 04:40:21 UTC, codephantom wrote:
> On Sunday, 12 November 2017 at 01:00:46 UTC, bauss wrote:
>> I'm tired so I will end my post here.
>
> And I'm going to end all my posts here, cause I'm sick of arguing with MSFT fanboys, who want to restrain D's development by tying it into propriatery, closed source, bloatware.
Yeah, I'm MSFT fanboy because I think ?? and ?. operators from C# are useful.
Think of a number between 1 and 10.... Yes, that's your IQ.

>
> I'm going to start focusing my attention on rewriting (some) of FreeBSD userland, using D ..and see what happens. (btw. such programs can easily be migrated to Linux/OSX too...or the new 'System D' ..when it arrives ;-)
You should starts from Kernel.

And if you don't want to start form scratch, you can use my OS written in D :)
https://github.com/Rikarin/Trinix

> Besides being more productive, it also seems like more fun, than responding to MSFT fanboys (although that's been fun too).
How is rewriting the same software from C to D productive?

>
> Sorry MSFT fanboys, if you don't know what userland means. Go google it.
Yeah, nobody is as smart as you.

Good luck with rewriting the same code. It's boring, bug introducing and useless work but do what you want.

On Sunday, 12 November 2017 at 08:33:34 UTC, Satoshi wrote:
>
>> I'm going to start focusing my attention on rewriting (some) of FreeBSD userland, using D ..and see what happens. (btw. such programs can easily be migrated to Linux/OSX too...or the new 'System D' ..when it arrives ;-)
> You should starts from Kernel.
>
> And if you don't want to start form scratch, you can use my OS written in D :)
> https://github.com/Rikarin/Trinix

I'm expecting your first pull request in couple of days :)