On Wednesday, 12 March 2014 at 18:11:52 UTC, bossfong wrote:
> As a "new kid", I'm really baffled by by how much discussion in the developers scene is done in mailing lists.
> I strongly believe that mailing-lists are not suited for heated discussions on very specific issues. I even belive it's counter-productive when comparing the discussion flow with modern forum software.
> By modern forum software I mean discussion centric software like disqus[1].
>
> My appeal is it to switch to a more modern forum software (even though I value really much, that the current webforum is implemented in D).
>
> Is there anything specific holding us back?
>
> [1] http://disqus.com

I too primarily use the web forum to follow this newsgroup and find the widespread use of mailing lists to this day baffling.  I understand that there are those like Walter or H.S. Teoh who have a long-standing workflow with newsgroup readers and email clients, so it's great that we can each access the discussion in the form that suits us best.  However, I'm not a fan of disqus.

You need to be more specific about what you want that the current web forum, DFeed, doesn't provide.  It is open source and you can contribute to it here:

https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed

On Wed, 12 Mar 2014 14:11:50 -0400, bossfong <bossfong@posteo.de> wrote:

> As a "new kid", I'm really baffled by by how much discussion in the developers scene is done in mailing lists.
> I strongly believe that mailing-lists are not suited for heated discussions on very specific issues. I even belive it's counter-productive when comparing the discussion flow with modern forum software.

You can use NNTP and a competent newsreader, I suggest opera mail.

I can instantly search all posts from all years in Opera. I can read posts offline if I don't have access.

> By modern forum software I mean discussion centric software like disqus[1].

The only thing extra it provides is voting. We could potentially add voting to the forum software, but I won't use it, since I use NNTP.

I will mention that I love disqus for web sites I visit casually. But I don't think it's a good fit here, as most users have their own way of accessing the data.

-Steve

On Wednesday, 12 March 2014 at 18:15:33 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
> On Wednesday, 12 March 2014 at 18:11:52 UTC, bossfong wrote:
>> As a "new kid", I'm really baffled by by how much discussion in the developers scene is done in mailing lists.
>> I strongly believe that mailing-lists are not suited for heated discussions on very specific issues. I even belive it's counter-productive when comparing the discussion flow with modern forum software.
>> By modern forum software I mean discussion centric software like disqus[1].
>>
>> My appeal is it to switch to a more modern forum software (even though I value really much, that the current webforum is implemented in D).
>>
>> Is there anything specific holding us back?
>
> Many core contributors, as well as Walter Bright and Andrei Alexandrescu, communicate using news and email software (using the NNTP server and mailing list gateway). It would be unreasonable to ask them to switch. This forum was created as a compromise, as it provides a forum-like interface for those who prefer one, without dividing the community.

I can definitely understand that.

> Which Disqus features would you like to see in the forum interface?

Although it might sound very much like a Facebook fanboy, I would really like to have a way to agree to a post/someones opinion without having to go through the (to me tedious) process of writing a reply.
I also think this would get rid of the "+1" posts, which I find to be annoying.
Another reason why I think a Like/Thanks/Upvote/whateveryouwanttocallit feature would be helpfully is the following:
In one thread (I believe it was about Memory Management), there was some "side duscussion" about a "vocal minority". Reasoning about a vocal minority seem odd to me. So if there was a really easy way to somehow express your opinion about some statement, that would help.
Another feature I would like is proper line breaks. Line breaks are inserted in places where they just don't belong. This becomes especially visible when someone pastes code that spans over the "automatically insert a linebreak here" width. I have no clue, but to me it seems to be a limitation of the forum being backed by a newsgroup.
These are just two problems that stand out to me on a regular basis.
There are more things that annoyed me once or twice, but they just won't come to my head right now. I'll post another reply, when I remember them.

If somebody would like my forum and site --> dlang.ru I can share my engine. It's ASP.NET, but it's have a lot of good futures like, show answers to post, PMs, oAuth and so on. It's text base and have not tons of Ajax crap.

I can share it only for D project purpose if someone will decided to adopt it.

On Wednesday, 12 March 2014 at 18:20:05 UTC, Justin Whear wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Mar 2014 18:11:50 +0000, bossfong wrote:
>
>> ...
>> I even belive it's
>> counter-productive when comparing the discussion flow with modern forum
>> software.
>> ...
>
> I think most of us use email or newsreader software to participate, while
> the forum frontend caters primarily to the more casual users.

I understand that. But since the newsgroup seems to me to be the only way to stay up-to-date with D's development, I think it should be more open to casual developers.
I mean, there seem to be so many saying, there are too little people willing to do the work, we must start opening up for new developers to join in. They won't just magically start developing. Being able to take part in duscussions is essential for that.
(And I unerstand everyone is technically able to take part in the discussions, but for someone who is not used to mailing lists it is quite a burden getting used to it, at least thats my feeling/experience).

> I'm
> curious why you think that mailing-lists are a counterproductive way of
> handling this type of discussion,

This shows a probblem that annoys me a lot. I never said that, you just cut out the "when comparing to..." part and that twists the meaning of what I said. That's (to me) a no-go.

> particularly when much of the OSS
> developed in the last twenty years has been managed and coordinated using
> mailing-lists.
>
> Justin

Only because things have been a particular way for years or even decades, doesn't mean there might be better alternatives. Technology evolves and the people creating it should too.

On Wednesday, 12 March 2014 at 18:30:37 UTC, Jesse Phillips wrote:
>
> I don't see anything from that which would make it better for heated discussion. A discussion is just a thread of replies.

"A discussion is just a thread of replies" is wrong I believe. Discussions often evolve and diverge, whilst threads have a static title and topic.
I see sometimes people split discussions by starting a new thread, which is a really good step, but it happens too seldomly.
The forums threaded view works quite well though, so that wouldn't be something I would complain about. The threaded view took some time getting used to though.

> Votes are probably the only thing missing because they eliminate the need for "+1" posts.

I agree. (see, how again some button would have been nice)

On Wednesday, 12 March 2014 at 18:53:19 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> tl;dr, I find these so-called "modern" forum interfaces nigh unusable,
> and only barely tolerable. They barely scratch the surface of
> functionality that I currently have at my fingertips, and yet they
> require a browser with all of its bloat and memory / CPU consumption,
> all just to display some text and pictures on the screen and present a
> crippled UI.  Frankly, if the discussion were to take place on a web
> forum, I simply wouldn't participate.  Give me back my plain text
> interface, thank you very much.
>
> (Caveat: I know I'm a minority in these views, so don't get offended. I
> do feel very strongly about these things. :))
>
>
> T

You still have to accept, that not everybody is a "mailing-list-poweruser" like you. To get new people, I think the community needs to be more open to new people.

On Wednesday, 12 March 2014 at 20:27:42 UTC, Timon Gehr wrote:
> On 03/12/2014 07:11 PM, bossfong wrote:
>> As a "new kid", I'm really baffled by by how much discussion in the
>> developers scene is done in mailing lists.
>> I strongly believe that mailing-lists are not suited for heated
>> discussions on very specific issues.
>
> I happen to know that they are suited quite well, so please substantiate.
>

Having used more "modern" software extensively, mailing-lists just don't feel right to me personally, but thats just me and no argument.
For actual arguments see my earlier reply.
Newcomer-friendliness is a big one.

>> I even belive it's
>> counter-productive when comparing the discussion flow with modern forum
>> software.
>
> I don't understand. A comparison of paces will not change the direction of progress.
>

In heated discussions people sometimes get "enraged", which leads to misquouting for example.

>> By modern forum software I mean discussion centric software like disqus[1].
>> ...
>
> Note that at this point I don't know what 'discussion centric' means, except that it sounds 'modern'.
>

It does sound modern to me too and I don't actually know if that is somehow defined. Here is what I mean by it:
Discussions often evolve and change topics, still they stay in something called a "thread". Having replies coupled more loosely and maybe being able to "redefine" the current topic would be nice or otherwise split discussions, which (as appears to me) happens not often enough.

>> My appeal is it to switch to a more modern forum software
>
> Well, all content is available from the server.
>

I'm not sure what that means.

>> (even though I
>> value really much, that the current webforum is implemented in D).
>> ...
>
> This is the only actual (if weak) argument presented, and it goes against your suggestion. Are there others?
>

see above.

>> Is there anything specific holding us back?
>>
>> [1] http://disqus.com
>
> I've read more of that than I wanted, and I am not smarter now. The entire page appears to be a sales pitch devoid of content relevant to our case.

I apologize, since the last time I have taken a proper look at their website it seems to have turned into a mess.

On Thursday, 13 March 2014 at 12:34:10 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
> You can use NNTP and a competent newsreader, I suggest opera mail.
>
Having to install a new program on my computer just to read D news is not really an option to me and possibly many newcomers.

> I can instantly search all posts from all years in Opera. I can read posts offline if I don't have access.
>
>> By modern forum software I mean discussion centric software like disqus[1].
>
> The only thing extra it provides is voting. We could potentially add voting to the forum software, but I won't use it, since I use NNTP.

That would be great, but as you said, people like you won't be able to see it, which somewhat defeats its purpose.

>
> I will mention that I love disqus for web sites I visit casually. But I don't think it's a good fit here, as most users have their own way of accessing the data.
>
> -Steve

On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 18:12:16 +0000, bossfong wrote:

> On Wednesday, 12 March 2014 at 18:20:05 UTC, Justin Whear wrote:
>> On Wed, 12 Mar 2014 18:11:50 +0000, bossfong wrote:
>>
>>> ...
>>> I even belive it's counter-productive when comparing the discussion
>>> flow with modern forum software.
>>> ...
>>
>> I think most of us use email or newsreader software to participate, while the forum frontend caters primarily to the more casual users.
> 
> I understand that. But since the newsgroup seems to me to be the only
> way to stay up-to-date with D's development, I think it should be more
> open to casual developers.
> I mean, there seem to be so many saying, there are too little people
> willing to do the work, we must start opening up for new developers to
> join in. They won't just magically start developing. Being able to take
> part in duscussions is essential for that.
> (And I unerstand everyone is technically able to take part in the
> discussions, but for someone who is not used to mailing lists it is
> quite a burden getting used to it, at least thats my
> feeling/experience).

Regarding barrier to entry: because newsgroups have been around so long, there are many polished readers available for every platform.  I consider myself a newsgroup newb, so I use Pan on Linux--it's dead simple.  The minimal effort of installing and using a reader might turn away the most casual of posters, but shouldn't be a deterrent to anyone who is serious about participating.  Heck, we get the occasional troll, so it can't be too hard.

> 
>> I'm curious why you think that mailing-lists are a counterproductive way of handling this type of discussion,
> 
> This shows a probblem that annoys me a lot. I never said that, you just cut out the "when comparing to..." part and that twists the meaning of what I said. That's (to me) a no-go.
> 

Right, you said "when comparing the discussion flow with modern forum software."  But discussion flow is what the newsgroup approach does really *well*, having had threading and quoting support that modern forums are just starting to get serious about.  So I'm looking for you to unpack this assertion with examples of where forum software excels newsgroups in managing discussion flow.

>> particularly when much of the OSS developed in the last twenty years has been managed and coordinated using mailing-lists.
> 
> Only because things have been a particular way for years or even decades, doesn't mean there might be better alternatives. Technology evolves and the people creating it should too.

I'm not adverse to change, but I am against change for change's sake. Why should we discard this wonderfully simple, flexible, powerful, and distributed solution?  In exchange for what?

Cheers,
Justin