On Friday, 28 February 2014 at 11:54:52 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:
> On 2/28/2014 8:43 PM, Dicebot wrote:
>
>>
>> Most problems I have with D data structures come from qualifiers, not
>> from resource management. I really don't understand why this looks that
>> much of a problem. That said, my background very influenced by plain C
>> and that results in different habits and expectations.
>
> I have a strong C background as well and have never had any complaints about resource management in D. Every complaint I've seen has come from people trying to do C++-like RAII. And, though I don't understand it either, it does seem to be a big issue for them.

It really is, RAII is the most important idiom in C++, in short no RAII == buggy code. I mean proper C++ not C-with-classes-no-templates-no-exceptions bs.

So to sum up: C folks are not really happy, C++ folks are not really happy and C# folks are not really happy :P

On Friday, 28 February 2014 at 12:15:21 UTC, Szymon Gatner wrote:
> It really is, RAII is the most important idiom in C++, in short no RAII == buggy code. I mean proper C++ not C-with-classes-no-templates-no-exceptions bs.
>
> So to sum up: C folks are not really happy, C++ folks are not really happy and C# folks are not really happy :P

Repeating this again and again - you can use RAII. Just not with GC. It is importan idiom and it is supported. But it is not "one true way" so it is not supported for everything.

On Friday, 28 February 2014 at 11:43:58 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
> On Friday, 28 February 2014 at 11:28:01 UTC, Szymon Gatner wrote:
>> I didn't mean "basic" in the sense of "easy" but in the sense of something that has to dealt with all the time / is common requirement.
>
> Yes, it needs to be dealt with all the time but in a different ways. Problem is with getting sensible defaults. D makes a reasonable assumption that most applications don't actually care about tight bullet-proof resource management and defaults to GC. I may not like it but it fits criteria "built-in resource management" and pretty much shows that it is not as basic as one may think.
>

Not really different tho. Actual function call swqence might be different but the scheme is always the same: acquire resource, allocate, connect, take from pool vs release, deallocate, disconnect, return to pool. All of those fall under resource management - there is a finite amout of a resouce whether it is a memory, a system process, a file or a databese connection and it is crucial to the system stability that all of them are properly returned / released AND in proper order (which is of course reverse to "acquisition").

On Friday, 28 February 2014 at 12:17:22 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
> On Friday, 28 February 2014 at 12:15:21 UTC, Szymon Gatner wrote:
>> It really is, RAII is the most important idiom in C++, in short no RAII == buggy code. I mean proper C++ not C-with-classes-no-templates-no-exceptions bs.
>>
>> So to sum up: C folks are not really happy, C++ folks are not really happy and C# folks are not really happy :P
>
> Repeating this again and again - you can use RAII. Just not with GC. It is importan idiom and it is supported. But it is not "one true way" so it is not supported for everything.

I know I can, my point is that it is more difficult and I don't like it ;)

On 2/28/2014 9:15 PM, Szymon Gatner wrote:

>
> So to sum up: C folks are not really happy, C++ folks are not really
> happy and C# folks are not really happy :P

I'm a C folk and I'm really happy :)

On Friday, 28 February 2014 at 12:48:47 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:
> On 2/28/2014 9:15 PM, Szymon Gatner wrote:
>
>>
>> So to sum up: C folks are not really happy, C++ folks are not really
>> happy and C# folks are not really happy :P
>
> I'm a C folk and I'm really happy :)

C'mon, GC has to be an itch for you mallocers :)

Come to the dark side...

On Friday, 28 February 2014 at 12:52:28 UTC, Szymon Gatner wrote:
>> I'm a C folk and I'm really happy :)

+1

> C'mon, GC has to be an itch for you mallocers :)
>
> Come to the dark side...

It sometimes is. In that case we don't use GC.

Don't get me wrong - there are issues with current GC enforcement
and it is a major problem for real-time applications, there are
lot of threads with debates on topic (with me acting on
against-the-GC side). But it is a very small subset of
applications most programmers will never even write once in their
life, for everything else existing tools are pretty good.

I really think it is more of C++ architectural habit that itches
you right now :)

Le 28/02/2014 13:22, Szymon Gatner a écrit :
> On Friday, 28 February 2014 at 11:43:58 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
>> On Friday, 28 February 2014 at 11:28:01 UTC, Szymon Gatner wrote:
>>> I didn't mean "basic" in the sense of "easy" but in the sense of
>>> something that has to dealt with all the time / is common requirement.
>>
>> Yes, it needs to be dealt with all the time but in a different ways.
>> Problem is with getting sensible defaults. D makes a reasonable
>> assumption that most applications don't actually care about tight
>> bullet-proof resource management and defaults to GC. I may not like it
>> but it fits criteria "built-in resource management" and pretty much
>> shows that it is not as basic as one may think.
>>
>
> Not really different tho. Actual function call swqence might be
> different but the scheme is always the same: acquire resource, allocate,
> connect, take from pool vs release, deallocate, disconnect, return to
> pool. All of those fall under resource management - there is a finite
> amout of a resouce whether it is a memory, a system process, a file or a
> databese connection and it is crucial to the system stability that all
> of them are properly returned / released AND in proper order (which is
> of course reverse to "acquisition").

I had a lot of difficulties too with the release order of resources. Of course I am coming from c++, in which it's to ease to manage.
I got some head-hack for the resource management, maybe a DIP must be done here about a module dedicated to the resource management? Or at least a tutorial in the wiki?


I finally solve my issues, but I am not happy, cause the way it's done seems to be too much error prone (resource leaks).


I used to work on mobile devices and some kind of resources have to be released as soon as possible. I also don't really like having a lot of applications running on devices never releasing resources, it can break the principle of multi-task OS. Just try to launch many Java/C# applications at the same time, you'll have to buy more memory.